ForumsWorld Events, Politics, Religion, Etc.Circumcision banned

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thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
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this and this article states that a court in germany has banned circumcision stating that child did not consent to it.
My opinion, "WTF"
What are your thoughts on this?

  • 139 Replies
BRAAINZz
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BRAAINZz
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Oh, silly Germans and their ways at annoying Jewish people.
I don't know really what to think on this. I know that circumcision is important in some religions (Namely Judaism) but I don't understand how a court could rule this. It would be like making baptisms illegal. It's something they do to the child at a young age. I don't think that they can infringe on religious rights.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Oh, silly Germans and their ways at annoying Jewish people.

Could such a comment get any more stupid?...

Anyway, you gotta agree that circumcision is not the same as baptism, since there ARE health and psychological risks. This is also the reason for what happens in Germany. As long as the child agrees with the practice, it's all fine and candy, so no freedom of religion is broken. What is now made punishable in Germany is only circumcising a child (inflicting it pain) on your own initiative.

Though I can understand why people are offended and why this step was a step into a wasp nest, I also understand why they did this and I think it would be wrong to generally accept all sort of religious practices only because they are religious.
314d1
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314d1
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Good for Germany! Circumcision is a horrible thing to do to a child. I am sure if I ritually cut of the toe tips of babies, I would be locked up. Why is it any different for foreskins?

Why would it be aloud? At the very best, it is an unnecessary surgery on a vital part of the human body, on a human infant. Why would that be aloud? I can name any other body part, and I am sure that you would not allow me to cut it off a human baby just because my god says to.

The day religion is aloud it's own law is the day everyone has their own law.

Kevin4762
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Kevin4762
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children should be considered property, in my opinion. If I want to kill my child, I should be able to. I created it after all.

If I create a computer from scratch, should I be disallowed from destroying it? No.

After a certain age, they would no longer be considered property. What that age is, I don't know.

ethan3300
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ethan3300
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They cut the ti of you penis to make it look longer.
Makes no sense to me.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Whatever public opinion would be, if there's one thing I dislike here, it's the fact that the religious folks seem to think it's couched in an anti religious manner; they blow this up to seem like some conspiracy. Narrow minded conservatives.

sensanaty
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sensanaty
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Could such a comment get any more stupid?..


Ze joke went over your head.

@Kevin How do you even compare a child to a computer?

Well, religion is declining in most of Europe, except for Islam (Source, source (the later doesn't look too reliable, though)), so I guess people care less and less about all the religious ceremonies they used to have.

And I say it's good. I was (luckily) never circumcised, and I don't see why they should even do it. I mean, you're cutting of the freaking tip of the penis, how do they not think that just sounds weirdly painful and wrong? I say, good for Germany.
crazyape
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crazyape
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Why would it be aloud? At the very best, it is an unnecessary surgery on a vital part of the human body, on a human infant. Why would that be aloud? I can name any other body part, and I am sure that you would not allow me to cut it off a human baby just because my god says to.


If it's not aloud, try doing it so other people can't hear, so whether or not they think it should beallowed doesn't matter.

And I say it's good. I was (luckily) never circumcised, and I don't see why they should even do it. I mean, you're cutting of the freaking tip of the penis, how do they not think that just sounds weirdly painful and wrong? I say, good for Germany.

There is strong evidence that circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men in populations that are at high risk. Evidence among heterosexual men in sub-Saharan Africa shows a decreased risk of between 38 percent and 66 percent over two years and in this population studies rate it cost effective. There is little or no evidence that it protects against male-to-female HIV transmission, and whether it is of benefit in developed countries and among men who have sex with men is undetermined.


Over forty observational studies have been conducted to investigate the relationship between circumcision and HIV infection. Reviews of these studies have reached differing conclusions about whether circumcision could be used as a prevention method against HIV.
Experimental evidence was needed to establish a causal relationship between lack of circumcision and HIV, so three randomized controlled trials were commissioned as a means to reduce the effect of any confounding factors. Trials took place in South Africa, Kenya and Uganda. All three trials were stopped early by their monitoring boards on ethical grounds, because those in the circumcised group had a lower rate of HIV contraction than the control group. The results showed that circumcision reduced vaginal-to-penile transmission of HIV by 60%, 53%, and 51%, respectively. A meta-analysis of the African randomised controlled trials found that the risk in circumcised males was 0.44 times that in uncircumcised males, and that 72 circumcisions would need to be performed to prevent one HIV infection. The authors also stated that using circumcision as a means to reduce HIV infection would, on a national level, require consistently safe sexual practices to maintain the protective benefit.
As a result of these findings, the WHO and the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS) stated that male circumcision is an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention but should be carried out by well trained medical professionals and under conditions of informed consent. Both the WHO and CDC indicate that circumcision may not reduce HIV transmission from men to women, and that data are lacking for the transmission rate of men who engage in **** sex with a female partner. The joint WHO/UNAIDS recommendation also notes that circumcision only provides partial protection from HIV and should never replace known methods of HIV prevention. The Male Circumcision Clearinghouse website was formed by WHO, UNAIDS, FHI and AVAC to provide current evidence-based guidance, information and resources to support the delivery of safe male circumcision services in countries that choose to scale up male circumcision as one component of comprehensive HIV prevention services.
Circumcision has been judged to be a cost-effective method to reduce the spread of HIV in a population, though not necessarily more cost-effective than condoms. Some have challenged the validity of the African randomized controlled trials, prompting a number of researchers to question the effectiveness of circumcision as an HIV prevention strategy.
In addition to the studies which provided information about female-to-male transmission, some studies have addressed other transmission routes. A randomised controlled trial in Uganda found that male circumcision did not reduce male to female transmission of HIV. The authors could not rule out the possibility of higher risk of transmission from men who did not wait for the wound to fully heal before engaging in intercourse. A meta-analysis of data from fifteen observational studies of men who have sex with men found "insufficient evidence that male circumcision protects against HIV infection or other STIs."

A 2007 meta-analysis of eight observational studies found no protective effect against human papillomavirus (HPV); critics reported that reanalysis of the same data showed a protective effect. A later analysis of 14 studies, by Bosch et al, found a protective effect. In 2011, a meta-analysis of 23 studies (including both randomised controlled trials and observational studies) found reduced risk of prevalent HPV and (though the evidence was less strong) some evidence of reduced risk of new HPV infections. In another analysis, in which 21 studies were included, there was a statistically significant reduction in prevalence of HPV, but no statistically significant association with new acquisitions was observed.
A 2009 meta-analysis of multiple studies found a significant association between genital warts and HPV and the presence of a foreskin, as well as HPV alone. While circumcision was associated with a lesser risk of genital warts alone, the association did not reach statistical significance. However, later analyses found no association between circumcision and penile warts.

Shall I go on?
sensanaty
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sensanaty
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@crazyape You're using big words, English is my 4th language, thus I understood about 1 and a half percent of everything you said. So, does it actually reduce HIV infection rates or not? And why were you even replying to me? :|

crazyape
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crazyape
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Evidence among heterosexual men in sub-Saharan Africa shows a decreased risk of between 38 percent and 66 percent over two years


Answer your question?

Again:

And I say it's good. I was (luckily) never circumcised, and I don't see why they should even do it. I mean, you're cutting of the freaking tip of the penis, how do they not think that just sounds weirdly painful and wrong? I say, good for Germany.


Which is wrong.

Male circumcision is the surgical removal of some or all of the foreskin (prepuce) from the penis.


Get your facts straight. Sheesh.
314d1
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314d1
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If it's not aloud, try doing it so other people can't hear, so whether or not they think it should beallowed doesn't matter.


What? I can't hear you. Maybe you should beallowed.

children should be considered property, in my opinion. If I want to kill my child, I should be able to. I created it after all.

If I create a computer from scratch, should I be disallowed from destroying it? No.

After a certain age, they would no longer be considered property. What that age is, I don't know.


Their life is their own. They are not property, they own themselves. It would be more like building a house, then selling it. Then blowing it up. Which is illegal in most places.


Over forty observational studies have been conducted to investigate the relationship between circumcision and HIV infection. Reviews of these studies have reached differing conclusions about whether circumcision could be used as a prevention method against HIV.
Experimental evidence was needed to establish a causal relationship between lack of circumcision and HIV, so three randomized controlled trials were commissioned as a means to reduce the effect of any confounding factors. Trials took place in South Africa, Kenya and Uganda. All three trials were stopped early by their monitoring boards on ethical grounds, because those in the circumcised group had a lower rate of HIV contraction than the control group. The results showed that circumcision reduced vaginal-to-penile transmission of HIV by 60%, 53%, and 51%, respectively. A meta-analysis of the African randomised controlled trials found that the risk in circumcised males was 0.44 times that in uncircumcised males, and that 72 circumcisions would need to be performed to prevent one HIV infection. The authors also stated that using circumcision as a means to reduce HIV infection would, on a national level, require consistently safe sexual practices to maintain the protective benefit.
As a result of these findings, the WHO and the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS) stated that male circumcision is an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention but should be carried out by well trained medical professionals and under conditions of informed consent. Both the WHO and CDC indicate that circumcision may not reduce HIV transmission from men to women, and that data are lacking for the transmission rate of men who engage in **** sex with a female partner. The joint WHO/UNAIDS recommendation also notes that circumcision only provides partial protection from HIV and should never replace known methods of HIV prevention. The Male Circumcision Clearinghouse website was formed by WHO, UNAIDS, FHI and AVAC to provide current evidence-based guidance, information and resources to support the delivery of safe male circumcision services in countries that choose to scale up male circumcision as one component of comprehensive HIV prevention services.
Circumcision has been judged to be a cost-effective method to reduce the spread of HIV in a population, though not necessarily more cost-effective than condoms. Some have challenged the validity of the African randomized controlled trials, prompting a number of researchers to question the effectiveness of circumcision as an HIV prevention strategy.
In addition to the studies which provided information about female-to-male transmission, some studies have addressed other transmission routes. A randomised controlled trial in Uganda found that male circumcision did not reduce male to female transmission of HIV. The authors could not rule out the possibility of higher risk of transmission from men who did not wait for the wound to fully heal before engaging in intercourse. A meta-analysis of data from fifteen observational studies of men who have sex with men found "insufficient evidence that male circumcision protects against HIV infection or other STIs."

A 2007 meta-analysis of eight observational studies found no protective effect against human papillomavirus (HPV); critics reported that reanalysis of the same data showed a protective effect. A later analysis of 14 studies, by Bosch et al, found a protective effect. In 2011, a meta-analysis of 23 studies (including both randomised controlled trials and observational studies) found reduced risk of prevalent HPV and (though the evidence was less strong) some evidence of reduced risk of new HPV infections. In another analysis, in which 21 studies were included, there was a statistically significant reduction in prevalence of HPV, but no statistically significant association with new acquisitions was observed.
A 2009 meta-analysis of multiple studies found a significant association between genital warts and HPV and the presence of a foreskin, as well as HPV alone. While circumcision was associated with a lesser risk of genital warts alone, the association did not reach statistical significance. However, later analyses found no association between circumcision and penile warts.

Shall I go on?


You know, you could just link that information and not have to make your post so long.

Circumcision can result in complications among many of the, may I remind you, babies who have this done to them, which can result in anything from bleeding complications to infections, with a third facing some form of complication, and many being worse like necrosis. This can often result in death or loss of the entire organ, witch is of course horrible.

More studies should be done in order to find out if there is a significant effect on HIV and circumcision, but in a place where HIV is not a major problem, like Germany, circumcising would do far more harm then good. This is not a poor, aids ridden, country we are talking about, this is a first world country that few people die of HIV in. More people die of the circumcision then of the HIV.

It is also noteworthy that most of the experiments done where incomplete, and where stopped early for ethical reasons. It is also important to mention they do not know why it would change, that it has an unknown effect on male to female HIV, and it seems to not effect homosexual sex. More studies would have to be done to say for sure. Other sexual diseases other then HIV have conflicting findings.
crazyape
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crazyape
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More studies should be done in order to find out if there is a significant effect on HIV and circumcision, but in a place where HIV is not a major problem, like Germany, circumcising would do far more harm then good. This is not a poor, aids ridden, country we are talking about, this is a first world country that few people die of HIV in. More people die of the circumcision then of the HIV.


Suck on this.
314d1
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314d1
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Suck on this.


Ah thanks for proving my point. Adult prevalence: Less then .1%. With less then a thousand deaths from it in the last few years. Even if it cured ALL deaths from HIV, it is still likely that circumcising could cause equivalent, if not worse, damage.
loloynage2
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loloynage2
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That's great! Circumcision is a violation of the child's human right. We banned human sacrifices and now infant mutilation. Well done Germany!

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Ze joke went over your head.

So it's a stupid joke instead of a stupid comment. Fine by me.

@crazyape
314d1 is right, circumcision isn't really harmless especially when considering it is often ritually done in regular localities by regular unprofessional people, instead of a clean clinical operation. Slightly decreasing the risks of a HIV infection is a cold comfort and certainly no reason to keep doing this.
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