Forums → WEPR → Circumcision banned
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A part that is totally not needed. I wonder when it gonna be a crime to cut hair...
It IS a crime to cut hair without people's consent.
The health benefits of circumcision are minimal at best, especially in a modern society. It isn't for the health reasons. Don't try to delude yourself. It is a cosmetic surgery that is regularly performed on infants. To go with Mage's (awesome) breast analogy, it's a lot like giving breast implants to an infant.
Sure, you can say it's religious freedom. But you know what else it is? Irreversible cosmetic surgery that is often performed on babies. Doesn't that strike you as, I don't know, insane? To be honest, I'm not surprised it was banned. I'm surprised anyone let it go on this long.
The health benefits of circumcision are minimal at best, especially in a modern society. It isn't for the health reasons
so what if the health benefits is minimal. It a unneeded part, so why ban it.
To go with Mage's (awesome) breast analogy, it's a lot like giving breast implants to an infant.
As I said before, you cant compare breasts with something that is completely useless.
Irreversible cosmetic surgery that is often performed on babies. Doesn't that strike you as, I don't know, insane?
Explain me why it is insane. It not like when the baby gets old and remember it. It be like the person was born with it.
Sure, you can say it's religious freedom.
It is a freedom, that is unreasonable taken away from you.
Being a parent is not whatever you think is right. There are many parents who think beating their kids is the magic solution to their bad behavior.
Some stubborn brats do need a good beating once in a while.
Nor does having two breasts. I've even pointed out you can get along with out any. I will admit there are benefits to breast feeding but I have also stated there may be functions to the foreskin as well.
It is just skin what function could it serve?(We are supposed to have a precision tool not a power tool.
As I said before, you cant compare breasts with something that is completely useless.
It is just skin what function could it serve?
It is not completely useless. It does have a function, it protects the sensitive mucosa below from friction and all that. It is not vital, but it does have a function still, and taking it away does affect the person, because you suddenly have a very sensitive skin part laid open constantly. With time it gets less sensitive and slightly thicker, which I think is the reason for that HIV resistance debate, because the mucosa is less permeable.
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I can't get tired enough of repeating that saying 'circumcision is banned' is simply false. Only a special case is banned, namely circumcision that is done on a healthy person without that persons explicit consent. Circumcision with consent as well as needed circumcisions for medical reasons are still allowed.
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I just read that in my country a hospital decided to suspend all circumcisions until they've decided about their position in this debate. I wonder how far the consequences of the original case will reach.
It is not completely useless.
Even if we assume it got some sort of small function. It doesn't change the fact, that it will not change your life if removed. Whatever very small function it may have, would be replaced with some other benefits.
I can't get tired enough of repeating that saying 'circumcision is banned' is simply false. Only a special case is banned, namely circumcision that is done on a healthy person without that persons explicit consent. Circumcision with consent as well as needed circumcisions for medical reasons are still allowed.
Everything that have a medical reason is allowed, so you can as well call it banned.
Even if we assume it got some sort of small function. It doesn't change the fact, that it will not change your life if removed. Whatever very small function it may have, would be replaced with some other benefits.
The thing is, both have their upsides and downsides, none is really better than the other (generally speaking, of course individually you may have people being better off circumcised or normal). But it does affect your life experience, even if slightly. So from that viewpoint, I think it's everyones right to know what is done with you, thus it needs your consent.
Independently of that each operation, no matter how small, presents risks, and doing it on a healthy patient (for non-medical reasons) requires the patients consent, like when you're ear piercing someone, because you're willingly putting the person at risk.
Everything that have a medical reason is allowed, so you can as well call it banned.
Don't some people want abortion to be banned, also including medically necessary interventions?... No I won't called it banned because it isn't. As far as I know ritual circumcisions can still be performed, as long as there's consent.
Don't tell me what to do with my kid.
Oh please, I've heard that line from my parents a billion and one times before. Just because the parents do something, it doesn't mean it's alright and that no one has any rights to interfere with it. My parents beat the **** out of me practically every day, and their response would always be "He's my kid, he needs to toughen up". Doesn't make it alright. Although it did bring advantages, I despised my parents back then.
Girls are more judgmental than men and we are also more sensitive
Oh-ho-ho, that may be true in Western countries, but in Slavic countries (Serbia, Russia etc.), the women are like men, probably even more psychotic.
I don't expect men to understand this because you are men and you will never have breasts.
Well, a man could always do a special kind of surgery.
I can honestly say I've never heard of this being an issue. Any guy I've ever talked do who is circumcised does fine with normal condoms. I have never heard that it hurts. I can't speak for other girls but I know that if a girl is lubricated enough naturally, this shouldn't be an issue.
I'm not saying they can't do fine without normal condoms, but there are these condoms that were made for people that are circumcised and have slight problems while having sex, e.g pain and what-not, so it's kind of like plastic, I can't seem to find the name of the durex version of it though. My sister told me that all that natural lubrication she has freezes due to the temperatures, so I don't really think it's the case everywhere that it's not a problem. And I find it easy to believe that it hurts, even uncurcimcised I can say that when you're piercing through the vagina for the (woman's) first time, it kind of hurts. Or maybe I'm just a sensitive *****, either way, it hurts for some.
Okay then, let's let kids do whatever the heck they want.
Again, in some countries, kids have to do stuff on their own because parents don't guide them through every single step in life. If the kid isn't stupid or spoiled(yes, spoiled brats) enough to do whatever, just like me and about 1000% of my friends, then the kid's going to learn how to be independent and self-relying. This is good. If the kid has enough brain power, he can, magically, figure out that eating something like a burger everyday is incredibly bad. That's also what school's for, to teach the children what's a yes, and what's a no. If the kids can't rely on themselves till the age of 16, it's the parents fault that they didn't let their child experiment. Of course, drugs should never be experimented with, and that should be carved into the child's brain, same like how my parent's carved it into my brain.
Kids don't always know best. There are things that we should allow them to choose and things that we shouldn't.
Same like how parents aren't magical beings, and whatever they do is always right and good because, well, he/she's a parent! It doesn't work like that. You can't know what will and will not have an impact on the kids' future life.
...but the procedure has been proven to lower the risk of transferring certain STDs and reduces the chances of infection.
As my father, the old idiot, always says, don't have sex without latex. Now, if you plan on getting a kid and you're extremely unlucky and miraculously get an STD because you didn't cut the flap of skin off of your penis, then no one can help there, that's just pure bad luck.
Some stubborn brats do need a good beating once in a while.
Eeyup. Hey, call me a hypocrite, but if I were the parent of about 80% of the Earth's population (both children and adults), they'd all be getting some serious beatings.
So from that viewpoint, I think it's everyones right to know what is done with you, thus it needs your consent.
The problem is, there will be involved other factors as soon you are old enough to give consent. To give an example. The person may feel uncomfortable when getting circumcision done to him, or the person don't want to experience remembering pain. It doesn't mean the person didn't want to be circumcised, but it would just be more difficult. Which all could have been avoided, if done in younger age.
Don't some people want abortion to be banned, also including medically necessary interventions?
The key word is some and want. Which mean it not all, and it not done.
Which all could have been avoided, if done in younger age.
And, by not circumcising one's penis at a young age, disappointment because of a circumcised penis can be avoided, as well. If one is old enough to understand mostly everything about the goods and bads of it, then I think the person knows what is all to be expected. And what pain, they use that thing I forgot the name of because I'm a complete idiot that paralyzes whatever body part it's injected into. There will be no pain felt, except for maybe afterwards. And if someone is shy or whatever, then that's his problem
disappointment because of a circumcised penis can be avoided
What to be disappointed about?
And I find it kinda funny how you later on write
And if someone is shy or whatever, then that's his problem
DSM, apparently not all circumcised people share your view of indifference. It's fine if you're ok with it, but not all are. So since we don't know how the child will feel later on, by what right do we assume that everything will just be fine?
What to be disappointed about?
People get disappointed for the stupidest reasons, I'm pretty sure people get disappointed because they were circumcised because their parents said "It's okay!"
And I find it kinda funny how you later on write
He knows what a circumcision is. He knows what has to be done. If he still feels uneasy doing so when he's 15/16+, then he needs to grow up and realize it's not a big deal for a doctor to do something that's not sexual to your penis.
He knows what a circumcision is. He knows what has to be done. If he still feels uneasy doing so when he's 15/16+, then he needs to grow up and realize it's not a big deal for a doctor to do something that's not sexual to your penis.
that wasn't my point. My point was that you said it his problem, but yet you still feel more or else sorry for somebody who are disappointed about circumcised in younger age. So basically my point was, in both cases they can grow up and realize it not a big deal.
People get disappointed for the stupidest reasons, I'm pretty sure people get disappointed because they were circumcised because their parents said "It's okay!"
DSM, apparently not all circumcised people share your view of indifference. It's fine if you're ok with it, but not all are. So since we don't know how the child will feel later on, by what right do we assume that everything will just be fine?
If that the reason it should be banned, then there is allot other things that should be banned as well. We cant help people like that in general. There will always be very small amount of people who just wont be satisfied the way things work. That why the society should focus on the majority, and help the minority with other means.
Drinking water instead of alcohol is also allot healthier, but I don't see them ban alcohol anytime soon.
That's a personal decision to make, unlike circumcision where someone else is deciding for you.
Explain me why it is insane. It not like when the baby gets old and remember it. It be like the person was born with it.
If you removed a girls breast it's not like she was old enough to remember it. It would be like she was born without it.
Some stubborn brats do need a good beating once in a while.
Bull, but different subject for a different thread.
It is just skin what function could it serve?(We are supposed to have a precision tool not a power tool.
Already pointed this out, it's not just skin. You're removing a large cluster of nurse along with it.
It is not completely useless. It does have a function, it protects the sensitive mucosa below from friction and all that. It is not vital, but it does have a function still, and taking it away does affect the person, because you suddenly have a very sensitive skin part laid open constantly. With time it gets less sensitive and slightly thicker, which I think is the reason for that HIV resistance debate, because the mucosa is less permeable.
I suppose another comparison could be to the permanent removal of finger or toenails.
Been thinking about this. This decrease of HIV infection in circumcised men in Africa. I wonder if there were perhaps other factors involved that could have lead to this reduction other then the circumcision. For instance could those men have had different sexual practices on average compared to non circumcised men.
These studies showing a reduction stopped their research once they found circumcised men with a reduction. This could indicate a confirmation bias in the studies...
Just found this.
http://www.salem-news.com/fms/pdf/2011-12_JLM-Boyle-Hill.pdf
"Participants in the immediate male circumcision groups also received two years of free medical treatment plus supportive counseling and safe-sex advice, difficult to provide in any large-scale "roll out" of mane circumcision in sun-Saharan Africa.WHO had specifically cautioned that the female-to-male Kenyan and Ugandan findings might not generalize to real-world settings."
So was it from circumcision or sex education that we see this 40% some odd % reduction?
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