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Anarchism

Posted Oct 13, '12 at 6:58am

partydevil

partydevil

5,130 posts

If it's the al shahab and Kenyan front line, even then it's fuzzy. Al shahab still
controls swathes of the countryside even after it's last major port fell last week, yet no one knows where this area of control extends to.


no it was in somalia iself by uganda. (uganda does not border somalia)
they have started in somaliland and are going down. trying to spread the pirates from the ME.

The Somaliland government has no wish to control the whole of Somalia,

somaliland has the wish that their faily in somalia will get a better, less violent life. if they could help whit that. they sure want to.

it would go against the year long mission of the UN and the AU in the capital, which is to prop the central government up

so? it's not the 1st time missions are done for nothing.
the somalian "government" is incapable. why try to fix that if there is already a alternative government existing?

The Marshall Plan required a huge financial backer, yet no one today is capable of rescuing a continent, let alone the world.


your missing the point here.
i didn't say (like whit the marshall plan) that 1 country needs to pay for it.
i said that the UN, AU nations and other countrys that will profit from a stable somalia. need to fund it. thats over 70 countrys.
so the bill can be spread over 70 nations.

and in the long run it will cost less then to protect the ships and only go past it in convoy.
that costs us billions per year.
 

Posted Oct 13, '12 at 7:51am

nichodemus

nichodemus

13,298 posts

Knight

no it was in somalia iself by uganda. (uganda does not border somalia)
they have started in somaliland and are going down. trying to spread the pirates from the ME.


No...Kenya is the one invading if that's what you're talking about. I have a feeling we're not hitting the same issue here.

somaliland has the wish that their faily in somalia will get a better, less violent life. if they could help whit that. they sure want to.


No, it is at it's core a separatist, breakaway movement that wants nothing to do and not be a part of Somalia due to historical reasons, such as different colonial rule.

so? it's not the 1st time missions are done for nothing.
the somalian "government" is incapable. why try to fix that if there is already a alternative government existing?


Because it is viewed as the legitimate government that was elected, and because progress has been made in extending it's control by AU troops.
And the tiny tiny issue that the breakaway region of Somaliland doesnt want to govern the whole of Somalia.


your missing the point here.
i didn't say (like whit the marshall plan) that 1 country needs to pay for it.
i said that the UN, AU nations and other countrys that will profit from a stable somalia. need to fund it. thats over 70 countrys.
so the bill can be spread over 70 nations


It will benefit, but in truth, the Horn of Africa doesn't feature highly on the agenda of most nations to warrant such aid when most are just trying to expand their economy now.

and in the long run it will cost less then to protect the ships and only go past it in convoy.
that costs us billions per year.



It's nothing compared to say the American deficit which runs into trillions.
 

Posted Oct 13, '12 at 5:08pm

partydevil

partydevil

5,130 posts

I have a feeling we're not hitting the same issue here.

i guess so.

No, it is at it's core a separatist, breakaway movement that wants nothing to do and not be a part of Somalia due to historical reasons, such as different colonial rule.

i dunno about this.
but wouldn't this be a good reason to acknowledge somaliland as a independent nation?

Because it is viewed as the legitimate government that was elected.

it's also seen that are incapable.

and because progress has been made in extending it's control by AU troops.
AU is the arabic union right?
where are their troops then?

It's nothing compared to say the American deficit which runs into trillions.

in the long run (10 year or so) the total costs for those precautions will be more then the 16 trillion us debt.
 

Posted Oct 13, '12 at 9:43pm

nichodemus

nichodemus

13,298 posts

Knight

i dunno about this.
but wouldn't this be a good reason to acknowledge somaliland as a independent nation?


Although it doesn't declare so de jure, the world community does acknowledge that Somaliland is de facto an autonomous region.

it's also seen that are incapable.


Well, legitimacy has always been favored over that...

AU is the arabic union right?
where are their troops then?


African Union. In Mogadishu.

in the long run (10 year or so) the total costs for those precautions will be more then the 16 trillion us debt


Not a proven assertion.
 

Posted Oct 14, '12 at 8:46am

partydevil

partydevil

5,130 posts

Although it doesn't declare so de jure, the world community does acknowledge that Somaliland is de facto an autonomous region.

the UK government said this in response of a petition:
The Government does not recognize Somaliland as an independent state, neither does the rest of the international community.
NY-times:
even a decade and a half after the area's so-called independence, no country in the world recognizes it as such. The African Union, which is made up of all the countries on the continent, does not acknowledge a Somaliland nation, nor does the United Nations.

the arab league go's even a step further:
The Arab leaders have also expressed concern about recent reports suggesting that Israel might recognize the Republic of Somaliland. The Arab Councils said they support unified Somalia just like all Arab League members and will not tolerate foreign interference in an Arab League member nation.
The Council emphasized that they only recognize one Somalia led by Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed and have strongly warned Israel not to recognize Somaliland.


Well, legitimacy has always been favored over that...

not whit everyone.

African Union. In Mogadishu.

their troops are kenya in the south and uganda in the north?
beside that i don't see any african troops.

Not a proven assertion.

oke, i went on counting for this
2010 total costs was 8.3 billion.
this amount will dubble whitin a few years. so 10 years 16.6 billion is 166 billion.
i think we can press down piracy for that price.
 

Posted Oct 14, '12 at 10:13am

partydevil

partydevil

5,130 posts

sorry forgo to add source for the last part.

here you go =)

 

Posted Oct 15, '12 at 12:25am

nichodemus

nichodemus

13,298 posts

Knight

their troops are kenya in the south and uganda in the north?
beside that i don't see any african troops.


You're not there literally seeing are you? The African Union Mission in Somalia (AMISOM) is an active, regional peacekeeping mission operated by the African Union with the approval of the United Nations in Somalia. It is mandated to support transitional governmental structures, implement a national security plan, train the Somali security forces, and to assist in creating a secure environment for the delivery of humanitarian aid.


oke, i went on counting for this
2010 total costs was 8.3 billion.
this amount will dubble whitin a few years. so 10 years 16.6 billion is 166 billion.
i think we can press down piracy for that price.


Again this is an assertion on the doubling part. America's wars cost much more on that; if anything those are the main concerns.


I don't think you understand my point. No nation in the world recognizes it de jure, by the law, but almost all nations in the world recognize its de facto control tacitly and leave it alone. This can be seen by the AU's and EU's actions by opening up conferences o eventually recognize it. This is further seen When in 2010 Johnnie Carson, Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, stated that the United States would be modifying its strategy in Somalia and would seek deeper engagement with the governments of Somaliland and Puntland while continuing to support the Somali Transitional Government. Carson said the US would send aid workers and diplomats to Puntland and Somaliland and alluded to the possibility of future development projects.
 

Posted Oct 15, '12 at 7:29am

partydevil

partydevil

5,130 posts

You're not there literally seeing are you?


what i (literally) see is that their are not enough troops there and that they lack the materials needed to fight them effectively.

The African Union Mission in Somalia (AMISOM) is an active, regional peacekeeping mission operated by the African Union with the approval of the United Nations in Somalia. It is mandated to support transitional governmental structures, implement a national security plan, train the Somali security forces, and to assist in creating a secure environment for the delivery of humanitarian aid.

isn't politics nice?
allot of words, nothing happening.
national security plan - nice they have a plan but they are not able to.
somali security forces - it wont pay as much as piracy. 15.000 in their entire life vs 300.000 in 5 year.
so they do the training and then use what they learned as a pirate.
same happens in afghanistan where they simply infiltrate in these trainings.
assist in creating a secure environment for the delivery of humanitarian aid. - a hospital here and there? wont help defeat piracy.

America's wars cost much more on that;

well it's america. ofcourse it costs more.
i fail to see how we can compare usa whit africa if it comes to war costs.

but almost all nations in the world recognize its de facto control tacitly and leave it alone.

show me plz.

his can be seen by the AU's and EU's actions by opening up conferences o eventually recognize it.

in the meanwhile they have recognized multiple new countries. why can't they do so for somaliland? what is their reason?

This is further seen When in 2010 Johnnie Carson, Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, stated that the United States would be modifying its strategy in Somalia and would seek deeper engagement with the governments of Somaliland and Puntland while continuing to support the Somali Transitional Government.

they are not in somalia. they are only in the water protecting ships. (btw, puntland has no government. puntland = somaliland.)

and nice they support it. i support it aswell. these are just words, no actions.

Carson said the US would send aid workers and diplomats to Puntland and Somaliland and alluded to the possibility of future development projects.

again nice words that holds nothing.
somaliland don't need the development projects. they have a stable society. (1 of the very few in the region)

if they really wanna help somaliland. then they should recognize it as a nation. so other nations can't give the argument that no1 else recognizes them either. that would be a good 1st step.
instead they say empty words.
 

Posted Oct 15, '12 at 7:40am

partydevil

partydevil

5,130 posts

Again this is an assertion on the doubling part.


in 2005 the average ransom money was 150.000 dollar.
in 2010 the average ransom money was 5.4 million dollar.
more and more captains are taking the alternative route around africa. adding 3 weeks to their journey. almost dubbling the time from asian to europe.
saying it will dubble in a few year is a safe assumption. it most likely will do more then just dubble.
 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 1:17am

nichodemus

nichodemus

13,298 posts

Knight

what i (literally) see is that their are not enough troops there and that they lack the materials needed to fight them effectively.


No one willingly sends their citizens to die overseas. We should be thankful the AU did something.


isn't politics nice?
allot of words, nothing happening.
national security plan - nice they have a plan but they are not able to.
somali security forces - it wont pay as much as piracy. 15.000 in their entire life vs 300.000 in 5 year.
so they do the training and then use what they learned as a pirate.
same happens in afghanistan where they simply infiltrate in these trainings.
assist in creating a secure environment for the delivery of humanitarian aid. - a hospital here and there? wont help defeat piracy.



This is where we disagree. Piracy is at the bottom of their concerns list right now, the various warlords, separatist movements and Islamists are the major concerns. Pirates nibble at parts of the economy, the warlords undermine it's entire sovereignty. That is the problem being tackled first. And in case you didn't know, there is a task force in the Gulf of Aden monitoring and rooting out piracy already.

well it's america. ofcourse it costs more.
i fail to see how we can compare usa whit africa if it comes to war costs.

The point was not a comparison, but that Ameirca and it's allies are already bogged down.

show me plz.


You don't see military action against them do you?


in the meanwhile they have recognized multiple new countries. why can't they do so for somaliland? what is their reason?



Because at it's roots, the Somaliland government broke away by force ad without a popular vote. Kosovo and South Sudan have had voting processes.

they are not in somalia. they are only in the water protecting ships. (btw, puntland has no government. puntland = somaliland.)

and nice they support it. i support it aswell. these are just words, no actions.


These words are just words, but they reflect te government attitude, instead of your claim that they outrightly reject them. What the USA is stating is that Somalia will become a greater priority.

Puntland is another region and is not Somaliland. It has it's own government it's president is a former PhD candidate in the history department at La Trobe University in Melbourne, Australia.

somaliland don't need the development projects. they have a stable society. (1 of the very few in the region)

if they really wanna help somaliland. then they should recognize it as a nation. so other nations can't give the argument that no1 else recognizes them either. that would be a good 1st step.
instead they say empty words.


It isn't a stable place. No separatist region ever is, because it came into power and preserves it's power by force. It needs massive development projects; schools, water plants, roads, transport systems and the lot.

The world doesnt recognize it because it is illegitimate, and because the Transition Government is recognized as the rightful central administration.

in 2005 the average ransom money was 150.000 dollar.
in 2010 the average ransom money was 5.4 million dollar.
more and more captains are taking the alternative route around africa. adding 3 weeks to their journey. almost dubbling the time from asian to europe.
saying it will dubble in a few year is a safe assumption. it most likely will do more then just dubble.


Something called global inflation. Also, Combined Task Force 50 is already doing it's job in the region. Lastly, even if it doubles, which is a very tenuous claim at best, there are far more pressing issues than another backwater African state on the plate of most nations.
 
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