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_Spaz_
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I really do not think people understand what Anarchism is. I am an Anarchist myself and it is saddening to hear that people think that Anarchy is "Chaos" and "Disorder" when in reality it is the opposite. I think people have grown so attached to their governments that they depend on them to run their lives and without it there will be chaos. That's just chaos, not Anarchy. Anarchy is peace and order. Government is violence. Anyone care to add to this?
*If you are going to argue this please do not state the fact that it can not work. That is a lame argument and needs to be backed up with evidence and proof.
Thanks

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nichodemus
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no it was in somalia iself by uganda. (uganda does not border somalia)
they have started in somaliland and are going down. trying to spread the pirates from the ME.


No...Kenya is the one invading if that's what you're talking about. I have a feeling we're not hitting the same issue here.

somaliland has the wish that their faily in somalia will get a better, less violent life. if they could help whit that. they sure want to.


No, it is at it's core a separatist, breakaway movement that wants nothing to do and not be a part of Somalia due to historical reasons, such as different colonial rule.

so? it's not the 1st time missions are done for nothing.
the somalian "government" is incapable. why try to fix that if there is already a alternative government existing?


Because it is viewed as the legitimate government that was elected, and because progress has been made in extending it's control by AU troops.
And the tiny tiny issue that the breakaway region of Somaliland doesnt want to govern the whole of Somalia.


your missing the point here.
i didn't say (like whit the marshall plan) that 1 country needs to pay for it.
i said that the UN, AU nations and other countrys that will profit from a stable somalia. need to fund it. thats over 70 countrys.
so the bill can be spread over 70 nations


It will benefit, but in truth, the Horn of Africa doesn't feature highly on the agenda of most nations to warrant such aid when most are just trying to expand their economy now.

and in the long run it will cost less then to protect the ships and only go past it in convoy.
that costs us billions per year.



It's nothing compared to say the American deficit which runs into trillions.
partydevil
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I have a feeling we're not hitting the same issue here.

i guess so.

No, it is at it's core a separatist, breakaway movement that wants nothing to do and not be a part of Somalia due to historical reasons, such as different colonial rule.

i dunno about this.
but wouldn't this be a good reason to acknowledge somaliland as a independent nation?

Because it is viewed as the legitimate government that was elected.

it's also seen that are incapable.

and because progress has been made in extending it's control by AU troops.
AU is the arabic union right?
where are their troops then?

It's nothing compared to say the American deficit which runs into trillions.

in the long run (10 year or so) the total costs for those precautions will be more then the 16 trillion us debt.
nichodemus
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i dunno about this.
but wouldn't this be a good reason to acknowledge somaliland as a independent nation?


Although it doesn't declare so de jure, the world community does acknowledge that Somaliland is de facto an autonomous region.

it's also seen that are incapable.


Well, legitimacy has always been favored over that...

AU is the arabic union right?
where are their troops then?


African Union. In Mogadishu.

in the long run (10 year or so) the total costs for those precautions will be more then the 16 trillion us debt


Not a proven assertion.
partydevil
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Although it doesn't declare so de jure, the world community does acknowledge that Somaliland is de facto an autonomous region.

the UK government said this in response of a petition:
The Government does not recognize Somaliland as an independent state, neither does the rest of the international community.
NY-times:
even a decade and a half after the area's so-called independence, no country in the world recognizes it as such. The African Union, which is made up of all the countries on the continent, does not acknowledge a Somaliland nation, nor does the United Nations.

the arab league go's even a step further:
The Arab leaders have also expressed concern about recent reports suggesting that Israel might recognize the Republic of Somaliland. The Arab Councils said they support unified Somalia just like all Arab League members and will not tolerate foreign interference in an Arab League member nation.
The Council emphasized that they only recognize one Somalia led by Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed and have strongly warned Israel not to recognize Somaliland.


Well, legitimacy has always been favored over that...

not whit everyone.

African Union. In Mogadishu.

their troops are kenya in the south and uganda in the north?
beside that i don't see any african troops.

Not a proven assertion.

oke, i went on counting for this
2010 total costs was 8.3 billion.
this amount will dubble whitin a few years. so 10 years 16.6 billion is 166 billion.
i think we can press down piracy for that price.
partydevil
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sorry forgo to add source for the last part.

here you go =)

nichodemus
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their troops are kenya in the south and uganda in the north?
beside that i don't see any african troops.


You're not there literally seeing are you? The African Union Mission in Somalia (AMISOM) is an active, regional peacekeeping mission operated by the African Union with the approval of the United Nations in Somalia. It is mandated to support transitional governmental structures, implement a national security plan, train the Somali security forces, and to assist in creating a secure environment for the delivery of humanitarian aid.


oke, i went on counting for this
2010 total costs was 8.3 billion.
this amount will dubble whitin a few years. so 10 years 16.6 billion is 166 billion.
i think we can press down piracy for that price.


Again this is an assertion on the doubling part. America's wars cost much more on that; if anything those are the main concerns.


I don't think you understand my point. No nation in the world recognizes it de jure, by the law, but almost all nations in the world recognize its de facto control tacitly and leave it alone. This can be seen by the AU's and EU's actions by opening up conferences o eventually recognize it. This is further seen When in 2010 Johnnie Carson, Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, stated that the United States would be modifying its strategy in Somalia and would seek deeper engagement with the governments of Somaliland and Puntland while continuing to support the Somali Transitional Government. Carson said the US would send aid workers and diplomats to Puntland and Somaliland and alluded to the possibility of future development projects.
partydevil
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You're not there literally seeing are you?


what i (literally) see is that their are not enough troops there and that they lack the materials needed to fight them effectively.

The African Union Mission in Somalia (AMISOM) is an active, regional peacekeeping mission operated by the African Union with the approval of the United Nations in Somalia. It is mandated to support transitional governmental structures, implement a national security plan, train the Somali security forces, and to assist in creating a secure environment for the delivery of humanitarian aid.

isn't politics nice?
allot of words, nothing happening.
national security plan - nice they have a plan but they are not able to.
somali security forces - it wont pay as much as piracy. 15.000 in their entire life vs 300.000 in 5 year.
so they do the training and then use what they learned as a pirate.
same happens in afghanistan where they simply infiltrate in these trainings.
assist in creating a secure environment for the delivery of humanitarian aid. - a hospital here and there? wont help defeat piracy.

America's wars cost much more on that;

well it's america. ofcourse it costs more.
i fail to see how we can compare usa whit africa if it comes to war costs.

but almost all nations in the world recognize its de facto control tacitly and leave it alone.

show me plz.

his can be seen by the AU's and EU's actions by opening up conferences o eventually recognize it.

in the meanwhile they have recognized multiple new countries. why can't they do so for somaliland? what is their reason?

This is further seen When in 2010 Johnnie Carson, Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, stated that the United States would be modifying its strategy in Somalia and would seek deeper engagement with the governments of Somaliland and Puntland while continuing to support the Somali Transitional Government.

they are not in somalia. they are only in the water protecting ships. (btw, puntland has no government. puntland = somaliland.)

and nice they support it. i support it aswell. these are just words, no actions.

Carson said the US would send aid workers and diplomats to Puntland and Somaliland and alluded to the possibility of future development projects.

again nice words that holds nothing.
somaliland don't need the development projects. they have a stable society. (1 of the very few in the region)

if they really wanna help somaliland. then they should recognize it as a nation. so other nations can't give the argument that no1 else recognizes them either. that would be a good 1st step.
instead they say empty words.
partydevil
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Again this is an assertion on the doubling part.


in 2005 the average ransom money was 150.000 dollar.
in 2010 the average ransom money was 5.4 million dollar.
more and more captains are taking the alternative route around africa. adding 3 weeks to their journey. almost dubbling the time from asian to europe.
saying it will dubble in a few year is a safe assumption. it most likely will do more then just dubble.
nichodemus
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what i (literally) see is that their are not enough troops there and that they lack the materials needed to fight them effectively.


No one willingly sends their citizens to die overseas. We should be thankful the AU did something.


isn't politics nice?
allot of words, nothing happening.
national security plan - nice they have a plan but they are not able to.
somali security forces - it wont pay as much as piracy. 15.000 in their entire life vs 300.000 in 5 year.
so they do the training and then use what they learned as a pirate.
same happens in afghanistan where they simply infiltrate in these trainings.
assist in creating a secure environment for the delivery of humanitarian aid. - a hospital here and there? wont help defeat piracy.



This is where we disagree. Piracy is at the bottom of their concerns list right now, the various warlords, separatist movements and Islamists are the major concerns. Pirates nibble at parts of the economy, the warlords undermine it's entire sovereignty. That is the problem being tackled first. And in case you didn't know, there is a task force in the Gulf of Aden monitoring and rooting out piracy already.

well it's america. ofcourse it costs more.
i fail to see how we can compare usa whit africa if it comes to war costs.

The point was not a comparison, but that Ameirca and it's allies are already bogged down.

show me plz.


You don't see military action against them do you?


in the meanwhile they have recognized multiple new countries. why can't they do so for somaliland? what is their reason?



Because at it's roots, the Somaliland government broke away by force ad without a popular vote. Kosovo and South Sudan have had voting processes.

they are not in somalia. they are only in the water protecting ships. (btw, puntland has no government. puntland = somaliland.)

and nice they support it. i support it aswell. these are just words, no actions.


These words are just words, but they reflect te government attitude, instead of your claim that they outrightly reject them. What the USA is stating is that Somalia will become a greater priority.

Puntland is another region and is not Somaliland. It has it's own government it's president is a former PhD candidate in the history department at La Trobe University in Melbourne, Australia.

somaliland don't need the development projects. they have a stable society. (1 of the very few in the region)

if they really wanna help somaliland. then they should recognize it as a nation. so other nations can't give the argument that no1 else recognizes them either. that would be a good 1st step.
instead they say empty words.


It isn't a stable place. No separatist region ever is, because it came into power and preserves it's power by force. It needs massive development projects; schools, water plants, roads, transport systems and the lot.

The world doesnt recognize it because it is illegitimate, and because the Transition Government is recognized as the rightful central administration.

in 2005 the average ransom money was 150.000 dollar.
in 2010 the average ransom money was 5.4 million dollar.
more and more captains are taking the alternative route around africa. adding 3 weeks to their journey. almost dubbling the time from asian to europe.
saying it will dubble in a few year is a safe assumption. it most likely will do more then just dubble.


Something called global inflation. Also, Combined Task Force 50 is already doing it's job in the region. Lastly, even if it doubles, which is a very tenuous claim at best, there are far more pressing issues than another backwater African state on the plate of most nations.
partydevil
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No one willingly sends their citizens to die overseas. We should be thankful the AU did something.


then don't send people but atleast materials that they can use to fight time. like.. i dunno a plane or helicopter maybe?

Piracy is at the bottom of their concerns list right now

piracy is a problem for so many people and nations. it shouldn't be at the bottom.

there is a task force in the Gulf of Aden monitoring and rooting out piracy already.

on the water yes. just to protect the ships.

The point was not a comparison, but that Ameirca and it's allies are already bogged down.


america isn't the only army. heck america doesn't has much to do whit it. it's mainly a european and asian problem because it's on that route. so i would assume that china, japan, india and the netherlands would be some of the players that want the thread to be gone fast.
and those countries are not that busy whit war atm.

You don't see military action against them do you?

bombing the only safe place in somalia where not every single house is full whit bullet holes. would be stupid.
it has nothing to do whit recognizing it. it just common sense i guess.

Because at it's roots, the Somaliland government broke away by force ad without a popular vote. Kosovo and South Sudan have had voting processes.

how long did it take to recognize israel? somaliland is busy for 21 year now. does it realy take that long when it is obvious they have a better and more stable government then the original country?

These words are just words, but they reflect te government attitude, instead of your claim that they outrightly reject them. What the USA is stating is that Somalia will become a greater priority.

i saw them make a statement over somaliland and puntland not somalia tbh.

Puntland is another region and is not Somaliland. It has it's own government it's president is a former PhD candidate in the history department at La Trobe University in Melbourne, Australia

well puntland fought whit somaliland for independence. they have together build the "border" between them and somalia.
sorry that i thought they were still together.
but if people can recognize 1 of them, then 2 of them will be even harder i guess.

It isn't a stable place.

make a visit there
it's safe and stable. even more stable then congo.
in somaliland i don't have to fear for racists wanting to hurt me because of the color of my skin for example.

It needs massive development projects; schools, water plants, roads, transport systems and the lot.

they already have that.

Something called global inflation.

inflation of 3600% ?
global inflation is real but isn't this high.
beside pirates don't keep up whit the global inflation. they ask what they want and they always get what they want.
also are the costs for the alternative route almost dubble the normal price solely because it take dubble the time. and dubble the fuel. etc.
stating it will dubble is very safe.

there are far more pressing issues than another backwater African state on the plate of most nations.


i dunno, 16.6 billion per year is more then some african countries get as aid. 16.6 billion in costs that wasn't there 10 year ago.
nichodemus
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then don't send people but atleast materials that they can use to fight time. like.. i dunno a plane or helicopter maybe?


Taxpayers' money again.


piracy is a problem for so many people and nations. it shouldn't be at the bottom.


It is below economic development, growth and austerity measures. Not many parties make combatting piracy in Somalia their campaign message; shows how far down the pecking order it it.

on the water yes. just to protect the ships.


The UN count for land troops is currently 17000, a massive number.

america isn't the only army. heck america doesn't has much to do whit it. it's mainly a european and asian problem because it's on that route. so i would assume that china, japan, india and the netherlands would be some of the players that want the thread to be gone fast.
and those countries are not that busy whit war atm.


Because many of these nations have already contributed ships. Singapore just sent a task force a few days ago; the global recession is still te foremost problem, not a few pirates in the Aden.

bombing the only safe place in somalia where not every single house is full whit bullet holes. would be stupid.
it has nothing to do whit recognizing it. it just common sense i guess.


That hasn't stopped any war thus far. Most nation don't care about Somalia to make such a big issue out of secessionist movements there; hence they have de facto control, which is only not recognized in rhetoric, the reality is, they are tacitly recognizing it.

how long did it take to recognize israel? somaliland is busy for 21 year now. does it realy take that long when is obvious they have a better and more stable government then the original country?


Because Somaliland is different. Israel was partitioned by the international community that's why it was recognized. Somalia wasn't.


well puntland fought whit somaliland for independence. they have together build the "border" between them and somalia.
sorry that i thought they were still together.
but if people can recognize 1 of them, then 2 of them will be even harder i guess.


But none are recognized.

make a visit there
it's safe and stable. even more stable then congo.
in somaliland i don't have to fear for racists wanting to hurt me because of the color of my skin for example.


Well, I almost went to Kenya but since the region was too unstable, cause of al shahab that it was cancelled. Says a lot.


they already have that.


But you said they didn't need.

i
nflation of 3600% ?
global inflation is real but isn't this high.
beside pirates don't keep up whit the global inflation. they ask what they want and they always get what they want.
also are the costs for the alternative route almost dubble the normal price solely because it take dubble the time. and dubble the fuel. etc.
stating it will dubble is very safe.


I have problems with this. one, pirate are already being hammered. Second, it assumes much trade goes through the region such that it poses a far more significant problem than it is.


16.6 is a lot for African nations. Yet not all the ships are from Africa. And 16.6 is nothing compared with the austerity cuts some nations are taking.
partydevil
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Taxpayers' money again.

do you hear the tax payers cry about the helicopters used to protect the sea?
these same could be used for ground battles. it wont cost more then it already does.
only use them in a different way.

The UN count for land troops is currently 17000, a massive number.

and where are they located?

Because many of these nations have already contributed ships.

ships can't fight a ground war. these ships are only there to protect other ships.



Well, I almost went to Kenya but since the region was too unstable, cause of al shahab that it was cancelled. Says a lot.

kenya is on the other side of somalia. and a few 1000km away from somaliland. but oke.

But you said they didn't need.

they don't need it they already have it.

they don't need the development projects because they already have that what these programs want to develop.

pirate are already being hammered.

how? (beside the little non-effective war)
it assumes much trade goes through the region such that it poses a far more significant problem than it is.

hmm yea it's almost as busy as the panama canal. these are the most busy waterways on the planet. (well not long anymore if more and more captains choose the alternative route.)

===================================

i don't see the use of this conversation anymore.

you are diminishing the problem and try to shuff it under the carpet. no matter what i say. your conclusion is that it isn't as bad as it is.
thepunisher93
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The thread has spoken and it says
"Kill me please!"

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