Forums

ForumsWorld Events, Politics, Religion, Etc.

[NECRO] Catholics aren't Christians, and other myths (apologetics thread)

Thread Locked

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 9:21pm

Jacen96

Jacen96

2,210 posts

rathar than just writing it all down, I will give you this link for an in-depth answer to your question.rn

The reason infallibility wasn't officialy defined until the first Vatican council was because it wasn't challenged until then, but it has been around for as long as the church has been around.

since you apparently ignored my last link.

please answer the sola scriptura question.

~~~Darth Caedus

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 10:18pm

jeol

jeol

3,565 posts

rathar than just writing it all down, I will give you this link for an in-depth answer to your question.

Right... Well... I suppose I'll bring the arguments across the board since both of us are 'too lazy to read each other's links.'

"(from your link) One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth."

Perhaps, but that does not mean that their prayers are better than ours because they are saints, or are in heaven. Sure, you might pray to them because their prayers might add urgency to the situation, but:

"(from my link) God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God's throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16)."

"(from your link) Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16"18)."

I have to disagree with this. A righteous prayer is nothing short of a righteous prayer. I do not think that one's religious standing has anything to do with whether a prayer might be heard. The righteous have to become righteous sometime; they are not born righteous. Prayer is a powerful thing, and correlates with what God's will is, not whether he is concerned if the person has converted enough people or said enough wise things to be granted this prayer. I don't believe that's in his character. If a prayer is righteous at heart, God will commend it.

"(from your link) Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious. "

God would not accept us if we hadn't already confessed of our sins and He forgave us of them, making us perfect at heart (here on earth), so that statement is unsound. Perhaps someone might pray a righteous prayer who is not a Christian, but I don't think we are considering that here.

Alas, I feel as though the beliefs of Catholicism are mostly circumstantial and aren't exactly answered clearly through scripture - context is an issue, perhaps even for both sides.

"If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life. "

That is in part proof of that. Yes, perhaps he could have caused transubstantiation, or let all of the saints know of our earthly prayers, but it is indeed circumstantial, and we must evaluate if it is in God's character to do so.

I did not answer the Sola Scriptura question since it was not me who you quoted, but if you're asking me, I might as well reply. Yes, I believe in the Sola Scriptura, as I think that the Protestant beliefs follow what the Scripture says at heart, what makes logical sense, apart from doctrine or dogma that relies only partially on what the Bible says and the other part on what other humans may say.

Martin Luther, while he may have realized that some parts of the beliefs of Catholicism weren't truly agreeable, held on to some certain beliefs that he didn't exactly want to part with that the Protestants did not believe they should participate in, or found them circumstantial, as I have. While I do agree with the Lutherans that the Bible was written through the authors by the Holy Spirit, I do not believe that the liturgical practices are necessary or even should be practiced present day. I'm not exactly sure what you are asking in this case, so I'll leave it at that unless you ask further.

 

Posted Oct 17, '12 at 12:33am

Jacen96

Jacen96

2,210 posts

God would not accept us if we hadn't already confessed of our sins and He forgave us of them, making us perfect at heart (here on earth), so that statement is unsound. Perhaps someone might pray a righteous prayer who is not a Christian, but I don't think we are considering that here.

Those in Heaven have become free from sin, as sin is not allowed in Heaven, so we can safely assume that they can not lie, and thus, can be trusted to tell a honest, and direct appraisal of our need for help.

this applies to first point.

as for saints being able to hear our prayers, Heaven is not the same thing as Earth, its time is different, and one could probably say that every saint is at every point in history at the same time because of that fact. And since they are glorified, why would they not be able to understand languages other than their first language?

I did not answer the Sola Scriptura question since it was not me who you quoted, but if you're asking me, I might as well reply. Yes, I believe in the Sola Scriptura, as I think that the Protestant beliefs follow what the Scripture says at heart, what makes logical sense, apart from doctrine or dogma that relies only partially on what the Bible says and the other part on what other humans may say.

Martin Luther, while he may have realized that some parts of the beliefs of Catholicism weren't truly agreeable, held on to some certain beliefs that he didn't exactly want to part with that the Protestants did not believe they should participate in, or found them circumstantial, as I have. While I do agree with the Lutherans that the Bible was written through the authors by the Holy Spirit, I do not believe that the liturgical practices are necessary or even should be practiced present day. I'm not exactly sure what you are asking in this case, so I'll leave it at that unless you ask further.

Then you must also believe that you cannot interpret the Bible without help, but if you operate without Sacred Tradition as well, that is what you are doing.

to add in some more.

works are required for salvation, as shown when Jesus says in James 2:14-17 "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." and other verses as well

purgatory referenced in the bible as well

references to books in the apocrypha in the accepted canon of KJV protestents.
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom
16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

p.s. what is with random quotation marks in the first paragraph?

~~~Darth Caedus

 

Posted Oct 17, '12 at 12:43am

Jacen96

Jacen96

2,210 posts

sorry for double post, but books that have been labeled as apocrypha have been found, written in Jewish and Aramaic in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

~~~Darth Caedus

 

Posted Oct 17, '12 at 10:47am

jeol

jeol

3,565 posts

Those in Heaven have become free from sin, as sin is not allowed in Heaven, so we can safely assume that they can not lie, and thus, can be trusted to tell a honest, and direct appraisal of our need for help.

A righteous prayer could be a lie? Would God not be able to comprehend what is right? I would think that God would know the truth either way, so that is inconclusive.

as for saints being able to hear our prayers, Heaven is not the same thing as Earth, its time is different, and one could probably say that every saint is at every point in history at the same time because of that fact. And since they are glorified, why would they not be able to understand languages other than their first language?

That wasn't what I was talking about. Like I mentioned later, most of that evidence is circumstantial, and while it may be true, I don't think it is very necessary or should be practiced in the first place.

Then you must also believe that you cannot interpret the Bible without help, but if you operate without Sacred Tradition as well, that is what you are doing.

HRRRRRRNNHHHHHHHH... I hate it when people put words in my mouth.

That is not what I said. There's a few intersecting parts about this.

1. I believe that the Bible, when interpreted, should at least be at the consent of others. When someone makes an observation, you should check it up to see if it follows through with what you can see.

2. "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll." - Revelation 22: 18-19 Perhaps we should be careful about what all we are interpreting when reading the Bible.

3. Sacred Tradition? What about leading others to Christ? Must the Pope only be allowed to do that, since he alone has the infallible principles of the Church? If we cannot understand Scripture, how can we be truly Christians? Either way, if people check up with what you are saying and agree that that is probably what it says (as well as consent with God, asking him to show what he wants you to see), then you have come to a uniform decision within the church.

works are required for salvation, as shown when Jesus says in James 2:14-17 "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." and other verses as well

What do you think that means? Obviously, good deeds is a good practice, and showcases you a true Christian, or Christ follower as Jesus would have wanted. As Christians we should strive to help others.

purgatory referenced in the bible as well

I would prefer if you didn't give me something to download. Do you have an actual link to provide?

references to books in the apocrypha in the accepted canon of KJV protestents.
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom
16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

That is not to say that it is infallible in form. If I wrote something that echoed the Bible in a bunch of thoughts, does that mean that my writing is correct and is infallible? (Please say no :P)

p.s. what is with random quotation marks in the first paragraph?

Because we both seemed to fail to actually read each others' references.

sorry for double post, but books that have been labeled as apocrypha have been found, written in Jewish and Aramaic in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Read above.

 

Posted Oct 17, '12 at 1:18pm

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

4,977 posts

I would prefer if you didn't give me something to download. Do you have an actual link to provide?

The article basically says that this is the main biblical support of purgatory. That seems like a stretch. I think the scripture is merely a metaphor saying that if you make yourself more like Jesus, you will be more spiritually resolute than one who did not.

 

Posted Oct 17, '12 at 2:57pm

jeol

jeol

3,565 posts

The article basically says that this is the main biblical support of purgatory. That seems like a stretch. I think the scripture is merely a metaphor saying that if you make yourself more like Jesus, you will be more spiritually resolute than one who did not.

Aye. Somewhere in Revelations, it basically says that the more good works you may do, the more jewels you will earn on your crown. You can still be saved through salvation itself, though. (And it's not like that should be our only goal - that's rather low morally [or presumptuous, as the reference below says].) That passage seems to back that up nicely.

Anyways, here's a good read into that.

 

Posted Oct 17, '12 at 9:59pm

Jacen96

Jacen96

2,210 posts

he alone has the infallible principles of the Church?

The entire Church is infallible in its teachings, (I don't mean what the parish priest says, goes, but when a group of Church leaders get together and decree something, it is infallible. The pope also has this ability, with this shown when PETER, not the group of apostles but just Peter, decrees that circumcision is not required.)

Aye. Somewhere in Revelations, it basically says that the more good works you may do, the more jewels you will earn on your crown. You can still be saved through salvation itself, though. (And it's not like that should be our only goal - that's rather low morally [or presumptuous, as the reference below says].) That passage seems to back that up nicely.

Really, a fundamentalist who believes works are required for salvation, that is surprising.

Purgatory is referenced by other verse relating to being saved or purified by fire (shown in 1 Corinthians 3:15).

Read above.

The argument protestents use is that the apocrypha were never written in Jewish, but the dead sea scrolls say otherwise.

also, Jewish books were written before New Testement, so the references were not put in while the books were being written.

~~~Darth Caedus

 

Posted Oct 17, '12 at 10:27pm

jeol

jeol

3,565 posts

Really, a fundamentalist who believes works are required for salvation, that is surprising.

Again, that's not what I said. I said that it could give you more 'reward' when you're in heaven.

"it basically says that the more good works you may do, the more jewels you will earn on your crown. You can still be saved through salvation itself, though."

Purgatory is referenced by other verse relating to being saved or purified by fire (shown in 1 Corinthians 3:15).

Or, it could be referencing the fact that works can get you
'more jewels on your crown', but you can still be saved by salvation regardless of works. That's how I see it, and it cross-references my statement earlier.

The argument protestents use is that the apocrypha were never written in Jewish, but the dead sea scrolls say otherwise.

You mean Hebrew? I'm pretty sure that Jewish isn't a language. In that case, yes, they're right :P

The entire Church is infallible in its teachings, (I don't mean what the parish priest says, goes, but when a group of Church leaders get together and decree something, it is infallible. The pope also has this ability, with this shown when PETER, not the group of apostles but just Peter, decrees that circumcision is not required.)

Perhaps, though corruption can still occur. History.

 

Posted Oct 17, '12 at 11:51pm

Jacen96

Jacen96

2,210 posts

"it basically says that the more good works you may do, the more jewels you will earn on your crown. You can still be saved through salvation itself, though."

James 2:14-26

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe"and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You mean Hebrew? I'm pretty sure that Jewish isn't a language. In that case, yes, they're right :P

yes, I mean Hebrew, but my point is that the whole argument of Jerome not having a Hebrew version, has been ruined by the discovery of these books in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Perhaps, though corruption can still occur. History.

Everyone is a sinner, and some more so than others, and those can get into positions of authority, even some popes had beliefs that differed from the true belief, but they could not pronounce them as doctrine. The problem comes from when the bishops with heretical beliefs force their congregation to accept them, and that is why there are 38000 different denominations nowadays.

~~~Darth Caedus