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[dup]Arguments for God

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Posted Oct 14, '12 at 5:32pm

hello4225

hello4225

5 posts

Your question is quite broad so I hope my post is accepted. In this case, I'm going to attempt to give arguments for the existence of Jesus as God/Son of God.

To start off, It's a widely known and accepted fact among theists and atheists alike that Jesus was a Jew. So Jesus would obviously have known how important and sacred the acknowledgement of God was among the Jews. Jesus claimed to be able to forgive sins, said he had always existed and was coming again to judge the world at a later date in time. Among pantheists anyone might say he was a part of God or one with God and there would be nothing very odd about it. But here is a man - since he was a Jew, could not mean that kind of god. God to Jews meant the being outside the universe, who is infinitely different to everything else (the created). And as CS Lewis puts it, 'once you have grasped that you would see that what Jesus said was quite simply the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips.'

Jesus knew before hand, that his teachings would be punishable by death, despite the fact that the Jews were not aloud to kill him, for religious reasons, he and they both knew they where under Roman ruling at the time, and just how dreadful the Roman death penalty would be handed out to anyone who breaks the law or denies ceaser.

This is a man (Jesus) that managed to change (literally) the world, in just 3 years of ministry. In 3 years, he managed to create as some would call it, a religion - Known throughout almost the whole world. It's by His name that most countries date their calenders and in his name billions curse and pray alike. That's pretty epic for 3 years work.

Several times Jesus predicted his death and just how it would be carried out, so he knew what he was getting himself into. It was a very nasty death, not just a quick nail to the cross. Some might say Jesus was just insane, a mad man. I tell you, 40 lashes of the cat o nine tails whip would quickly sober you up in fact one lash probably would do the trick. Men will often, even gladly die for what they believe to be true, but men don't die for what they know is a lie. (unless their a double agent spy or something.) Jesus had several deciples but 12 were the inner circle. These are the men that literally ate and lived with Jesus. These men gave up families, probably wives and children even. Why would they do that if they knew Jesus was a fraud. They where in danger for their lives on a daily bases some even went to prison yet continued to praise God and write letters to the early churches that where spreading like wild fire. People wanted to kill them, to end their lives after Jesus had died. Yet they still preached and spread the Good News.

The Jewish religious teachers and the scribes where against Jesus, they wanted him dead. If Jesus had not been raised from the dead, surely all they would have to do is quickly recover his dead corpse to blow any such belief in his resurrection out of the water. Jesus' close followers (initially) saw him alive after he had been crucified in front of them. But some might say that His deciples where so distraught and upset by what had happened, and they desperately wanted to believe he was the Messiah that they only thought they say him and where probably hallucinating. Any scientist could tell you now that hallucinations don't happen in groups, it's an individual's experience. For this to have a mass effect, modern technology or at least some sort of supernatural event will have had to occur. (according to biblical reports, up to 500 people saw Jesus alive after he had been crucified).

Some will even say Jesus was a moral teacher but refuse to accept him as God. No one who said the type of things Jesus said, could simply be a moral teacher. You would have to be literally insane or desperately evil, to lead people into such a teaching that promises life after death as long as you believe in and are willing to die for this man and abandon your family and all loved ones. However, the other alternative, is that Jesus truly was who he says he is. To willingly taste a slow and painfully horrible death and before hand be mocked, punched slapped, spat on etc, for what you know is a lie, just for the shear enjoyment of leading a nation astray, not truly knowing your self what awaits you after you die. I  highly doubt such a man could exists.

There's a few arguments for the existence in the Christian God.

 

Posted Oct 14, '12 at 5:52pm

hello4225

hello4225

5 posts

Or how about this one: "The fact that the world exists, is evidence for a creator." All we know and understand within our world has some how been created in one way or the other. So saying that the world's existence is proof for a creator is not a baseless argument. Because it is by an initiator or creator that we accept the origin of the existence of things, within our realm of understanding.

And a god is anything that is worshiped/idolized right? Well the 'initiator' of this universe is both worshiped and is creator. And also is supernatural, since is inconceivable even by mans highest knowledge and understanding of sciences. So I guess He/it can be defined as God with a capital G and the type of God referred to in this topic.

 

Posted Oct 14, '12 at 8:04pm

Roccess

Roccess

176 posts

If you guys don't like religion, that's fine, but don't talk down to those who believe in less science.

Anyways, I believe the ancient Greek/Roman Gods exist (oh yes) because I believe, like many people, that there is something bigger than us in this world, this life. Be it on Earth in disguise, or in space, it does not matter. In my religion, the Gods do not simply show themselves to the human kind.

Without realizing it, we believers have more proof than you do. You may be able to disprove a few myths, but in the time when most religions were starting, there were no books, or recorded history, besides bibles. And even if a single God visited our Earth, and we all depicted him in our own way, we all still created religion.

Of course, this is not proof, but still... even if this made no sense, I still wanted to point out that religion was started somehow.

 

Posted Oct 14, '12 at 8:22pm

Kasic

Kasic

5,572 posts

If you guys don't like religion, that's fine, but don't talk down to those who believe in less science.

Not too sure what you mean by this exactly...but no one has done so on this thread so far.

Anyways, I believe the ancient Greek/Roman Gods exist (oh yes) because I believe, like many people, that there is something bigger than us in this world, this life. Be it on Earth in disguise, or in space, it does not matter. In my religion, the Gods do not simply show themselves to the human kind.

Okay. You believe. Why do you believe in what you believe specifically? Why not something else?

Without realizing it, we believers have more proof than you do.

*Takes a look at selected holy texts.*
*Takes a look at mountains of research with repeatable experimental processes and corroborating data.*

Really? Also, what 'evidence' religion has is hearsay and individual, unbacked claims.

You may be able to disprove a few myths, but in the time when most religions were starting, there were no books, or recorded history, besides bibles.

...let me get this straight. You have more evidence because we has disproven parts of your belief and you had even less collaboration and consistency in your belief? That makes sense how?

And even if a single God visited our Earth, and we all depicted him in our own way, we all still created religion.

This all lies on the if part, which still has no backing. If a purple unicorn attacked a penguin farm, those penguins might be in trouble. If.

I still wanted to point out that religion was started somehow.

Of course it was started somehow. Things grow. Religion grew in the exact same way gossip grows and the very thing you mentioned earlier, that there were no books or consistent communications, only help prove that.

As of this post, there have been no valid arguments given for a god.

 

Posted Oct 15, '12 at 12:03am

SpazAttackerz

SpazAttackerz

62 posts

Just wondering (and I'm not particularly religious myself, de-converted about 2 years ago or so), but could miracles be an argument for a god? This is a question I've been pondering for a while, so let me explain.

Say you have a job, and everyday at the end of your shift you leave by car, and you always take the fastest way home, a certain route that you've taken for about 6 months. One day, for whatever reason, something in your head wants you to go a different way, so you do. You go the longer route for no particular reason, and when you get back home you find out that there was an accident that occurred somewhere along the route you usually take. It would've taken place just about when you reached there, most likely injuring you.

So considering that, I've been looking around and I can't exactly find much scientific reason as to what happened, why you would go the other way. Could something like this be the effect of a god? Do you think these miracles are controlled by something, like a god? Or is there scientific evidence for why this would happen? Just a question, not trying to be on one side or the other, just looking for an answer.

 

Posted Oct 15, '12 at 12:19am

TDOG422

TDOG422

330 posts

F.I.C.T.I.O.N

look it up.

 

Posted Oct 15, '12 at 12:34am

nichodemus

nichodemus

12,119 posts

Knight

So considering that, I've been looking around and I can't exactly find much scientific reason as to what happened, why you would go the other way. Could something like this be the effect of a god? Do you think these miracles are controlled by something, like a god? Or is there scientific evidence for why this would happen? Just a question, not trying to be on one side or the other, just looking for an answer.

It could just be.....you know, coincidence? What about people who ended up in accidents? Would that go against your case? Seems so.

 

Posted Oct 15, '12 at 12:41am

Kasic

Kasic

5,572 posts

but could miracles be an argument for a god?

They could be, depending. Said 'miracle' would have to be something which was observed by different parties and preferably recorded by multiple people, as well as leaving a visible effect for it to count as good evidence. Even then, it would just be evidence of 'something' and not for any religion's god in particular, or even a god at all...

For example, if someone came back to life, without medical intervention, after they were quite clearly dead...that would pretty much defy everything we know. There would be no natural cause for someone utterly dead healing spontaneously and recovering to the point of not having a wound.

Say you have a job, and everyday at the end of your shift you leave by car, and you always take the fastest way home, a certain route that you've taken for about 6 months. One day, for whatever reason, something in your head wants you to go a different way, so you do. You go the longer route for no particular reason, and when you get back home you find out that there was an accident that occurred somewhere along the route you usually take. It would've taken place just about when you reached there, most likely injuring you.

This would be coincidence. Perhaps you went a different way because you forgot something...or received a call, or had another stop somewhere else. Even if the reason was "just because" the fact that an accident happened then doesn't mean they would have been in it, or hampered by it. Nor does it even mean anything all that special. From a probability standpoint, an accident is just as likely on average to have occurred every other time they drove past that spot the previous 6 months (not getting into different factors like weather/person/car type/traffic flow/day of the week/time of the day/ etc).

We would also have to take this into account. Was there any other time whatsoever that they deviated from the usual path? The problem with this is it is a hypothetical. We can create it to be the most unnatural, yet still logical, problem we want. Real factors aren't taken into account.

So considering that, I've been looking around and I can't exactly find much scientific reason as to what happened, why you would go the other way.

You left the reason open in your example ("for whatever reason") so I could give you a virtually infinite number of reasons why that one day they took a different path.

Could something like this be the effect of a god?

In your example, it's already extremely dubious that anything out of the ordinary really happened. Accidents happen. People divert from usual schedules every so often. Even if it could be proven that they would divert their path every time something dangerous would happen, it still wouldn't be evidence for a god. It would just be evidence of something we aren't aware of, which could be anything from esp, to fate, to karma, to unnatural luck, to a supernatural entity.

Really, the only 'miracle' I could think of that would definitely prove the existence of a specific god is if it announced itself worldwide, in a way that everyone understood, in a way that we would all hear for no explainable cause, at the same time, specifically mentioned what it was doing, why it was doing it, gave proof to everyone individually that it was a higher power and then predicted an extremely detailed next day that could not be interpreted to mean anything other than what was meant.

While that is asking an absurd amount, it would be inconsequential to an all powerful, all knowing god (which is generally what gods are) and so I see no problem.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" -Carl Sagan

 

Posted Oct 15, '12 at 1:00am

SpazAttackerz

SpazAttackerz

62 posts

I guess my point was taken in a different direction. Thank you, both nichodemus and Kasic, I see that my given scenario was most likely just a coincidental cause, and I do agree with you Kasic, for a God to be proven it would actually have to give evidence, not hide in lost hope and "I gave you free will, so search for me".

It would just be evidence of something we aren't aware of, which could be anything from esp, to fate, to karma, to unnatural luck, to a supernatural entity.

What I was asking was do you think that these things, fate, karma, unnatural luck, could be controlled by something like a god. Just totally disregard your thinking about say a christian god, what I'm talking about is something that is just there for fate, karma, not something that created you or tells you what is right and wrong.

 

Posted Oct 15, '12 at 1:02am

TheMostManlyMan

TheMostManlyMan

2,960 posts

Ok. Here's an analogy I made for this type of topic

There is a (maybe more than one, don't recall) crystal skull, like he ones from Indiana Jones (yes, they're real). They have no tool marks and are complex. Now with no tool marks and being that old would anyone logically come to the the conclusion that they just happened, and that t was by complete coincidence that it exists? No, it's obvious that it was made by someone somewhere. So why would you say that the universe, or just earth, which is infinitely more complex, was a complete accident, that it just happened? The earth is the right distance away from the sun, if the moon was 50,000 miles away from the earth instead of 250,000, (as i recall) then the earth would be flooded 3 times a day, the earth has just the right thickness of the ozone layer, trees for air, all of this; and you think that it's stupid and illogical to think that it could have possibly have been made on purpose, you say it makes so much more sense that it just happened.

Also another argument (this one I didn't come up with) is the moral argument. Rocks are not moral, they have no standard nor do bugs or trees. The things you claim created the universe are indifferent as to how to behave. And yet people have a sense of right and wrong by default.

Think of a cell. Just one little cell, any kind, be it blood cell or brain cell. Man, with all of its intelligence and technology, can't make even a single cell without having something living to begin with. Science dictates that you cannot creat life without life. If man with all it has can't create life, how could it have just happened?

If you we're take apart an old watch, like the ones that were hand made oh so long ago, and put the pieces in a box and shake it up, and continue to do so for a month straight. What are the odds that you would even get 2 pieces to fit together and say that if they stuck together within the first hour, they never came apart, what are the odds that you would even have 2 pieces of the watch put together the way they should? And how simple is a watch compared to the earth, with all of the little factors that need to be just right in order to support life

There are things like he Grand Canyon, that would take millions of years to form, where's the bible now? Well if there was a great flood like back in Noah's time, then it wouldn't need to take millions of years.

You might go to the scientists who say hat they know that this Rick is x million years old. But they can't confirm that because the way they date it isn't accurate past about 2,000 years old. They measure how old something is base on how much of a certain radioactive material is in it, but how much of that radioactive material is in the air varies, and they know how much is in the air because they study it through trees which have one ring (when cut down) in the middle for every year, the oldest trees are about 2,000 years old, and apparently how much of said material is in he air varies quite a bit. Enough to completely throw off anything much past 2,000 years.

It's cause and effect, cause and effect. God caused the universe. But God is the I uncaused cause.