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[dup]Arguments for God

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Posted Oct 15, '12 at 11:44pm

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

5,013 posts

To really narrow down arguments I think we need a better definition of what god we're discussing in this thread.

Since the OP capitalized it, let's go with this one:

God: the sole Supreme Being, eternal, spiritual, and transcendent, who is the Creator and ruler of all and is infinite in all attributes; the object of worship in monotheistic religions

- Collins English Dictionary 2009

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 1:09am

Kasic

Kasic

5,592 posts

Since the OP capitalized it, let's go with this one:

I don't want to limit it to that.

Let's go with...

"A conscious supernatural being which intentionally created the universe."

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 2:36am

TheMostManlyMan

TheMostManlyMan

3,697 posts

Yeah for this discussion I like kasic's definition better.
And MageGrayWolf, whose side are you on?

I'm not going to repeat myself again, please look back in the thread as this fallacious point has been brought up 5-6 times already.

Maybe it's been brought up so many times because you can't seem to get it through your thick skull.

The universe is set up just right so that 99.99% of it is uninhabitable and fatal to known life, sure is proof of God alright.

Yes it is. Because He's going to end the world, and He's smart enough to not make a world that wouldn't last until He ended it. So there is no need for the rest of the universe to be inhabitable. It also shows that the earth is the most important, that here aren't other beings out there that Jesus died for, that the earth is the center (so to speak) of everything.

I've got a question for all y'all atheists. Where did all this matter come from, how did that get there, would t it have decayed over an eternity? Where did all of these atoms come from? Am I to assume that the rocks that made the earth before the Big Bang all happened to have all of these atoms and molecules in them at convenient levels of concentration? Your reasoning tells you there is no God, mine tells me that it's pretty obvious that there is.

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 3:07am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

Yes it is. Because He's going to end the world, and He's smart enough to not make a world that wouldn't last until He ended it. So there is no need for the rest of the universe to be inhabitable.

So whether the universe is set up well for life or not is evidence of god?

At any rate if this assertion is true then what was the point of making the rest of the 99.99%? It would seem your view of god lies to create a lot of waste space.

It also shows that the earth is the most important, that here aren't other beings out there that Jesus died for, that the earth is the center (so to speak) of everything.

I think you might be failing to understand just how big the universe is. Even with 99% + of it not habitable by life as we know it there is still plenty of wiggle room for other habitable planets out there. Enough so that it's very possible to be hundreds, even thousands of civilizations comparable to ours our there.

Where did all this matter come from,

Don't exactly know, we do have several hypotheses. Though just because we don't know doesn't mean we should apply the god of the gaps argument.

how did that get there,

Same answer as above.

would t it have decayed over an eternity?

No, the process of "decay" or cooling began after the Big Bang.

Where did all of these atoms come from?

a bunch of that energy from the Big Bang as it cooled becoming mostly hydrogen and helium. Those elements in turn formed proto-stars which gave us the other elements.

Am I to assume that the rocks that made the earth before the Big Bang all happened to have all of these atoms and molecules in them at convenient levels of concentration?

The rocks that made the Earth didn't exist at the Big Bang, so no.As noted above the elements had to first go though a refinement process of sorts.

Your reasoning tells you there is no God, mine tells me that it's pretty obvious that there is.

Your reasoning would appear to be based on a lack of or flawed information.

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 6:51am

wgalstin4

wgalstin4

6 posts

The idea I had of God when I started this was more one along the lines of a supremely perfect, atemporal and a-spatial being.

I'd be inclined to not even apply intentions to Him, although I wouldn't deny Him as creator (if we can establish that He's around).

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 7:16am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

I'd be inclined to not even apply intentions to Him, although I wouldn't deny Him as creator (if we can establish that He's around).

What would you accept as an establishment that this god is around?

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 8:52am

StDrake

StDrake

192 posts

Delving on the subject in my own time I came to the conclusion that you've mentionned already - it's all about faith, not knowledge. If we *knew* there was a god, there'd be no room for faith - believing facts is obvious, disbelieving facts is foolishness. Thus if there is God, a creator, he'd have probably make everything in a way that we could have NO way of proving, beyond any doubt, that he exists. Any arguments can be countered, any counterarguments can be neglected as not disproving anything.

Best argument I found so far was, paradoxally, the big bang theory - if the universe began from a single point, then that point was not uniform - otherwise all matter in space would be perfectly balanced, all particles in the same distance from one another. But a point is a point! It's an infinitely small space, there's no way for it to be nonuniform!..unless something cheats, and since God is supposed to be the omnipotent creator, including creating of the natural laws - he's not limited by them unless he chooses to - thus enabling cheating.

Of course that too can be countered - the point needed not be exactly a point, but rather a piece of space containing so much matter that no more can fit. The universe can be cycling big bangs and great collapses from infinity to infinity. Yet again that does in no way negate a possibility of something setting up the initial conditions for the first cycle.

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 9:21am

partydevil

partydevil

5,109 posts

if there is God, a creator, he'd have probably make everything in a way that we could have NO way of proving, beyond any doubt, that he exists.

did you just acknowledges that the bible is falls?

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 9:59am

StDrake

StDrake

192 posts

The Bible passes on mashed up bits on information, values and a lot of prayers. There are thousands of ways to read it, most of them wrong. The catholic church itself admitted to that, categorising books inside the Bible. The book of Genesis is probably the most used to show that it's all bull****. I've never yet seen anyone notice that book is classified as a prayer, not a historical passage.

So no, I do not say the Bible itself that's false, it's peoples interpretations that are. According to my own words the Bible is..I'm lacking a word here - undefined?

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 10:39am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

it's all about faith, not knowledge. If we *knew* there was a god, there'd be no room for faith

What makes accepting a claim without evidence such a good thing? Such a requirement only puts god on par with scam artists. As they are the only ones out side of religion making such demands.

The book of Genesis is probably the most used to show that it's all bull****. I've never yet seen anyone notice that book is classified as a prayer, not a historical passage.

I guess that explains why Jesus, a part that is suppose to be accepted as fact refers back to events in Genesis as if they took place. That was kinda his big reason for getting nailed to a cross.