ForumsWEPR[dup]Arguments for God

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wgalstin4
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wgalstin4
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Hi everyone,

I would like for anyone that thinks they have a convincing argument for the existence of God to post it here.

It doesn't matter if you're a believer or not, but I'd just like to see if anyone can provide an argument for the existence of God which can stand up to reasoning.

Most arguments for God's existence turn out to be circular, or can be reduced to faith alone which for me isn't enough.

I know people will say that the point in religion and God isn't to argue for His/Her/It's existence, but that the whole point is faith etc., and I acknowledge this as a valid point but one that is not relevant to this topic.

So any convincing arguments, please fire away!

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Kasic
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Since the OP capitalized it, let's go with this one:


I don't want to limit it to that.

Let's go with...

"A conscious supernatural being which intentionally created the universe."
TheMostManlyMan
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Yeah for this discussion I like kasic's definition better.
And MageGrayWolf, whose side are you on?

I'm not going to repeat myself again, please look back in the thread as this fallacious point has been brought up 5-6 times already.

Maybe it's been brought up so many times because you can't seem to get it through your thick skull.

The universe is set up just right so that 99.99% of it is uninhabitable and fatal to known life, sure is proof of God alright.


Yes it is. Because He's going to end the world, and He's smart enough to not make a world that wouldn't last until He ended it. So there is no need for the rest of the universe to be inhabitable. It also shows that the earth is the most important, that here aren't other beings out there that Jesus died for, that the earth is the center (so to speak) of everything.

I've got a question for all y'all atheists. Where did all this matter come from, how did that get there, would t it have decayed over an eternity? Where did all of these atoms come from? Am I to assume that the rocks that made the earth before the Big Bang all happened to have all of these atoms and molecules in them at convenient levels of concentration? Your reasoning tells you there is no God, mine tells me that it's pretty obvious that there is.
MageGrayWolf
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Yes it is. Because He's going to end the world, and He's smart enough to not make a world that wouldn't last until He ended it. So there is no need for the rest of the universe to be inhabitable.


So whether the universe is set up well for life or not is evidence of god?

At any rate if this assertion is true then what was the point of making the rest of the 99.99%? It would seem your view of god lies to create a lot of waste space.

It also shows that the earth is the most important, that here aren't other beings out there that Jesus died for, that the earth is the center (so to speak) of everything.


I think you might be failing to understand just how big the universe is. Even with 99% + of it not habitable by life as we know it there is still plenty of wiggle room for other habitable planets out there. Enough so that it's very possible to be hundreds, even thousands of civilizations comparable to ours our there.

Where did all this matter come from,


Don't exactly know, we do have several hypotheses. Though just because we don't know doesn't mean we should apply the god of the gaps argument.

how did that get there,


Same answer as above.

would t it have decayed over an eternity?


No, the process of "decay" or cooling began after the Big Bang.

Where did all of these atoms come from?


a bunch of that energy from the Big Bang as it cooled becoming mostly hydrogen and helium. Those elements in turn formed proto-stars which gave us the other elements.


Am I to assume that the rocks that made the earth before the Big Bang all happened to have all of these atoms and molecules in them at convenient levels of concentration?


The rocks that made the Earth didn't exist at the Big Bang, so no.As noted above the elements had to first go though a refinement process of sorts.

Your reasoning tells you there is no God, mine tells me that it's pretty obvious that there is.


Your reasoning would appear to be based on a lack of or flawed information.
wgalstin4
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wgalstin4
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The idea I had of God when I started this was more one along the lines of a supremely perfect, atemporal and a-spatial being.

I'd be inclined to not even apply intentions to Him, although I wouldn't deny Him as creator (if we can establish that He's around).

MageGrayWolf
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I'd be inclined to not even apply intentions to Him, although I wouldn't deny Him as creator (if we can establish that He's around).


What would you accept as an establishment that this god is around?
StDrake
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Delving on the subject in my own time I came to the conclusion that you've mentionned already - it's all about faith, not knowledge. If we *knew* there was a god, there'd be no room for faith - believing facts is obvious, disbelieving facts is foolishness. Thus if there is God, a creator, he'd have probably make everything in a way that we could have NO way of proving, beyond any doubt, that he exists. Any arguments can be countered, any counterarguments can be neglected as not disproving anything.

Best argument I found so far was, paradoxally, the big bang theory - if the universe began from a single point, then that point was not uniform - otherwise all matter in space would be perfectly balanced, all particles in the same distance from one another. But a point is a point! It's an infinitely small space, there's no way for it to be nonuniform!..unless something cheats, and since God is supposed to be the omnipotent creator, including creating of the natural laws - he's not limited by them unless he chooses to - thus enabling cheating.

Of course that too can be countered - the point needed not be exactly a point, but rather a piece of space containing so much matter that no more can fit. The universe can be cycling big bangs and great collapses from infinity to infinity. Yet again that does in no way negate a possibility of something setting up the initial conditions for the first cycle.

partydevil
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if there is God, a creator, he'd have probably make everything in a way that we could have NO way of proving, beyond any doubt, that he exists.

did you just acknowledges that the bible is falls?
StDrake
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The Bible passes on mashed up bits on information, values and a lot of prayers. There are thousands of ways to read it, most of them wrong. The catholic church itself admitted to that, categorising books inside the Bible. The book of Genesis is probably the most used to show that it's all bull****. I've never yet seen anyone notice that book is classified as a prayer, not a historical passage.

So no, I do not say the Bible itself that's false, it's peoples interpretations that are. According to my own words the Bible is..I'm lacking a word here - undefined?

MageGrayWolf
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it's all about faith, not knowledge. If we *knew* there was a god, there'd be no room for faith


What makes accepting a claim without evidence such a good thing? Such a requirement only puts god on par with scam artists. As they are the only ones out side of religion making such demands.

The book of Genesis is probably the most used to show that it's all bull****. I've never yet seen anyone notice that book is classified as a prayer, not a historical passage.


I guess that explains why Jesus, a part that is suppose to be accepted as fact refers back to events in Genesis as if they took place. That was kinda his big reason for getting nailed to a cross.
partydevil
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partydevil
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So no, I do not say the Bible itself that's false, it's peoples interpretations that are.


he'd have probably make everything in a way that we could have NO way of proving, beyond any doubt, that he exists.

if he doesn't want us to know him then why did he make a book to decisive so many people?

i mean, a book that is proof for your existences. but written in a way that can't be interpreted in the right way.
if there was even the possibility of interpreting it the right way, then god failed to keep it's existent unknown.

it's contradicting or it's very mean of god to publish this book and make it the cause of many problems.
Kasic
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So there is no need for the rest of the universe to be inhabitable. It also shows that the earth is the most important, that here aren't other beings out there that Jesus died for, that the earth is the center (so to speak) of everything.


Then why even make anything else?

And what happens if/when we do find something else?

Where did all this matter come from, how did that get there,


We don't know for sure yet. There's various theories about it out there.

If we *knew* there was a god, there'd be no room for faith - believing facts is obvious, disbelieving facts is foolishness. Thus if there is God, a creator, he'd have probably make everything in a way that we could have NO way of proving, beyond any doubt, that he exists.


...See, this is where I just facepalm. WHY would a god make it so that you can't prove it exists? Especially if he's going to be handing out dictates and punishments for NOT believing in him, and if you're going to claim he's all loving, he's basically watching upwards of 60% of the population (at the very least) shoot themselves in the spiritual foot!

Why does religion exalt faith? Because it has no facts. Why does it have no facts? Because there aren't any. Pretty clear cut.
StDrake
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I don't think the Bible is supposed to be a proof of Gods existence. It's more a set of values, guidelines for how to live a good life. With commentary to make it more understandable for the human mind...the ancient human mind at that and ways of thinking differ much now from what was then, hence some of the interpretation problems. Also note that it was written with human hands, human words, human understanding proper to the times it was written/spoken in.

As for accepting a claim without evidence being good or bad - I did not say either. Perhaps the matter of keeping faith as faith has a reflection in our freedom of thought. If we knew for sure that God, hell, heaven existed - would we act the same? Would a criminal perform crime if he KNEW for sure that he'd get caught and punushed? The mere certainty of His(sorry for the male form, it's just a matter of tradition and convenience) presence would be a kind of tyranny, slavery for the mind forcing it into certain action. And we are supposed to have free will..to help and to harm. Faith may guide us, but it has to be our independent decision.
The issue of Jesus vs the original sin that di not exist is a matter for its own topic (which does exist)

Kasic
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I don't think the Bible is supposed to be a proof of Gods existence. It's more a set of values, guidelines for how to live a good life.


As according to God. The whole idea of following what's "right" because the creator of the universe said that's what is right kind of falls on its face when you take out the reason why those are absolute.

What is it if not supposed to be evidence? Communication from God, stories of how he did things, his son, prophecies from him, what he is going to do...it revolves around him. Sure, you can make the argument that it's supposed to be a moral guide...but it's a moral guide based on that God exists and has told us exactly what he wants.

Also note that it was written with human hands, human words, human understanding proper to the times it was written/spoken in.


All the more evidence against the existence of said god.

Perhaps the matter of keeping faith as faith has a reflection in our freedom of thought. If we knew for sure that God, hell, heaven existed - would we act the same?


I'm failing to see how knowing what does and does not get you eternally punished for sure is a bad thing. So I know if I kill I'll be tortured forever. I won't steal then. It's not like I -can't- I would just be stupid to. It would result in much of the world's problems ending if we 'knew.' You can't say God is loving by not telling us the rules to life and giving us reason to believe them, especially when you claim he has done the opposite by making it impossible for us to believe unless we're gullible (which he would have made us or not).

And we are supposed to have free will..to help and to harm. Faith may guide us, but it has to be our independent decision.


You're forgetting a few important things. If an all knowing, all powerful, omniscient god does exist, there is no such thing as free will. All our actions would be predetermined and not able to be changed. Being guided by faith is like closing your eyes and running in random directions when you actually have eyes...
partydevil
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As for accepting a claim without evidence being good or bad - I did not say either. Perhaps the matter of keeping faith as faith has a reflection in our freedom of thought. If we knew for sure that God, hell, heaven existed - would we act the same? [b]Would a criminal perform crime if he KNEW for sure that he'd get caught and punushed? The mere certainty of His(sorry for the male form, it's just a matter of tradition and convenience) presence would be a kind of tyranny, slavery for the mind forcing it into certain action. And we are supposed to have free will..to help and to harm. Faith may guide us, but it has to be our independent decision.
The issue of Jesus vs the original sin that di not exist is a matter for its own topic (which does exist)[/b]

if we would have evidence of god, heaven, hell, etc.
then this criminal (sinners) wont do it because he knows he go to hell.
wouldn't it be better if we knew his existence and could obey him. (i don't see the free will when he is demanding things from us)
why would he hide himself and let bad things happen? so that he can withhold people to join him in heaven? aka, giving souls to satan.

partydevil
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partydevil
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oops wrong button.

at these times i hate AG for not having a edit button.

===========================

As for accepting a claim without evidence being good or bad - I did not say either. Perhaps the matter of keeping faith as faith has a reflection in our freedom of thought. If we knew for sure that God, hell, heaven existed - would we act the same? Would a criminal perform crime if he KNEW for sure that he'd get caught and punushed? The mere certainty of His(sorry for the male form, it's just a matter of tradition and convenience) presence would be a kind of tyranny, slavery for the mind forcing it into certain action. And we are supposed to have free will..to help and to harm. Faith may guide us, but it has to be our independent decision.
The issue of Jesus vs the original sin that di not exist is a matter for its own topic (which does exist)
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