Posted Dec 13, '12 at 1:33pm
Violence in the media, maybe. We don't condone actual violence to any extent. Hell, you even get in trouble for fighting back at school if you're being attacked.
Close minded isn't true so much as plain ignorance of other points of view.
I'll give you that many Americans are arrogant and nationalistic.
That doesn't mean everyone who think guns shouldn't be illegal is some redneck who lives in the south and drives a 10 year old pickup with 3 shotguns in the back and hangs antlers over their fireplace.
I live here, unlike you, and it's not 50% by any means. The "redneck" amount isn't very high, and the amount of people who are very arrogant/nationalistic is probably on the order of 5-10%. Idiots shout loudest, that doesn't mean there's more of them.
You could always look it up.
People still have guns though.
When are you going to see said gun? When he pulls it on you? Do you really think they'll let you call the police and wait 5-6 minutes for them to show up?
Partydevil, I've said this before many times. Not everyone can defend themselves against someone with a knife like you seem to think. Even taking a few self defense courses isn't going to change much in the heat of the moment vs someone who would really be trying to cut you with it. As for dying as fast, that depends on where you're shot/cut.
I've pulled in statistics before so look them up if you want.
Violence/crime rates in a country are dependent primarily upon the country's economic and political stability. Whether there are guns or not does not affect that.
Exactly. So even if they have the gun, are they going to use it? Perhaps, but same goes for if they were armed with any other type of weapon.
The psychos who are out to kill people are still going to get guns/bombs/whatever to kill people. Making them illegal changes nothing.
I was referring to an incident like an indiscriminate shooting. It's not about "being a hero" either. You want to call others close minded? Stop thinking that there's only two sides, one where guns are illegal and everyone follows that law or one where guns are legal and everyone goes on random shooting sprees.
-.- My point exactly. Making guns illegal does not stop crime/violence. Notice, you said by over 70%. That still means there's ~25% of the gun incidents still there. They aren't gone.
True, with a knife you can't kill as many people in a short amount of time or from a distance, and an unarmed person stands a better chance against someone with a knife than if they had a gun.
That doesn't change the fact that these incidents are still happening despite that guns are illegal. What did making guns illegal do? It changed the weapon. That's it. All you've done is plug one hole and watched the pressure pop open another hole of the exact same size. Anti-gun laws didn't solve anything.
In America it would have even less of an effect since there are already so many guns here and people unwilling to give them up. It would send loads of people who haven't done anything wrong to jail and make criminals the only ones armed. Disposal would cost a ton, all the new prisoners would cost a ton, police would have a ton more work to do and none of it was necessary or helpful to begin with.
Let's clear some things up, shall we?
1) Guns aren't evil. What is done with them is done by the people using them. A gun sitting there doesn't go on a rampage randomly and shoot people.
2) Not everyone who likes guns is a redneck with 3 shotguns in the back of their pickup and shoots at whoever disagrees with them. Far from it.
3) Calling someone an idiot because they have a different point of view shows nothing but your own immaturity. Partydevil wants to always rant about America's close mindedness, but really, we aren't alone in self-righteous attitudes.
4) You're naive to think that making guns illegal will prevent violence. All it does is change the weapon and guess what? Guns still exist even if they're illegal.
Posted Dec 13, '12 at 3:00pm
their are more subcultures that can't handle a gun.
no they havn't.
ive seen a reason of a pro-gun guy here that guns are oke because most people have had practice at some point.
also you seem to think that all knife incidents are about the guy wanting to stabe. while most of the time it's just to scare people.
in the heat of the moment people freeze. that always happens. heat of the moment should not be taken to any side.
bullets go deeper and penetrate bones.
i totally agree whit that. (therefor it has no place in this discussion) it is about the rate of crime not the weapon
but when every house has multiple guns. it is easyer for... let say a teen getting mad over something or adult who lost it's job or watever reason might pop-up. to pick up a gun. (his own or parents/brothers gun) and start rampaging.
other kinds of weapons are not so utterly easy to handle as a gun. they do not go as fast as a gun. they do not have the range of a gun.
but they are easyer to find and identify. as all firearms are coming from the underground and nothing can be distributed by smuggling it along side the legal distribution. because that doesn't exist.
i was referring to a robbery.
never said they will be gone.
-lower medical costs.
for owning a gun you dont go to prison. they just take the gun away from you and you get a fine for it in return. only if you have loas of guns and it seems you sell them you get jail.
just sell them to africa. thats what you government has always done.
i would be dead now if my parents had a gun in house somewhere.
Posted Dec 13, '12 at 3:32pm
Yes, they do. Obviously they do, because guns don't simply cease to exist because they're now illegal. People still commit crimes with illegal things. Assault rifles are illegal, how did that guy in Oregon get one? :O But they don't exist because they're illegal right?! No one has them! It's a conspiracy!
Most people aren't going to accidentally shoot someone else because we've grown up learning what guns can do and have been taught how to handle them in a safe manner.
I'm laughing now. You do realize this is EXACTLY what we've been trying to tell you about guns? Not all gun incidents are about the guy wanting to shoot someone else. Most of the time it's just to scare people. :O
No different from knives! Just a different weapon! How many times do I have to say this for you to understand?
Again, I don't know how many times I need to say this. Not everyone can disarm an opponent like that even with self defense courses.
Like the guy is just going to leave his knife in you and run away...You're going to bleed to death faster from a large gash than you would a single bullet wound. In the end, you're just being nitpicky on the how.
It doesn't matter if someone is killed by a bullet or a cut. They're still dead. You're ignoring the issue.
1) Not every house has multiple guns.
2) FAR from every teen who gets mad is going to go to such extremes as shooting someone else. For those that do, THEY HAD ANOTHER PROBLEM TO BEGIN WITH AND WOULD HAVE TAKEN OUT THAT VIOLENCE IN ANOTHER WAY ANYWAYS.
What can you not understand about this? Murders aren't committed by your every average day person. Just because 100 people have guns doesn't mean 100 guns are going to be fired. It's the crazy people, who regardless of whether they have a gun or not, are going to cause trouble. Making them illegal does NOTHING to stop that except change the likelihood of what weapon was used.
This is all a random hypothetical by you that has absolutely no bearing to begin with. If it was all a spur of the moment thing, there are plenty of other things available to cause harm with. Kitchen knife, chainsaw, car, homemade bomb, arson, etc. You're just arbitrarily deciding that guns are evil and completely ignoring reality.
Yes, a gun is different from a knife. So are any other number of weapons. Want to ban fire because it can burn down a hospital? A gun can't do that, thus fire must be worse than a gun right?
I already acknowledged that you can REDUCE the amount. You can't get rid of them entirely, and by making them illegal you AREN'T reducing crime/violence, you're just changing the means.
I know you were. However, that was in response to my example which was basically the same thing as the title.
Thanks for admitting the red herring though, I guess.
So please explain exactly what making guns illegal does other than reducing the amount of guns and changing what weapons criminals are more likely to have?
Unless you're dead.
More innocents getting assaulted because they aren't likely to have a way to defend themselves.
Many more rapes/thefts/assaults and not too many less deaths from homicide.
Loss of money overall due to a partial reimbursement on investments.
The only valid point you've made this entire thread, and that was simply because I'm not well versed in the UKs policy in what happens to people found with guns.
I'm sorry, when did this turn from why guns shouldn't be legal because people kill others with them to "my real problem is I hate America and I am like a dog with a bone and can't let anything go that has anything to do with it?"
If your parents were responsible, they wouldn't keep it in a place you knew about and preferably you wouldn't even have known it was there to begin with. Moot point.
Posted Dec 13, '12 at 3:54pm
How bout we just get rid of guns altogether and go WAAAAY back to throwing stones at eachother? Guns make it extremely easy to kill someone, so you dont have to struggle with your concience as much. Actually picking up a stone and beating someone's brains out tests your morality a lot more. Anyone that can do that...oh my.
Posted Dec 13, '12 at 5:04pm
i thought you mend the common man whit "people", not the criminals.
hahahaha xD good one.
but your response is that everyone should have a gun to gun down these people.
starting to see the difference now?
if guns and knifes are the same. why don't you go to war whit swords anymore?
your issue is the crime.
when everyone has a gun it has.
never said every. i just made up a example.
and again have i never said that. plz. stop making conclusions that you think that i make. because your waaaayyyyy off.
and you seem to deny the fact that it does happen. even if it's just 1 out of 10.000. it would safe 1.
yea, but non as fast and direct as a gun.
(home made bomb? that not a moment thing. if you have a bomb in house for the moment you might lose controle over yourself then you belong in the soft room of a institute allready)
are you trying to be stupid now? i know you dont belong to that group but....
i'm not discussing this for the seem needs as you.
that change is all.
dead is dead. i think we can agree on that.
remember, crime rate is primerly caused buy economical and politics.....
again a false assumption.
the money was lost when you bought the gun.
the moment you wanted money back for the weapons. the whole world sells or give their old guns to africa. the usa is a big player in that. dont be so tip-toed.
yea if everyone in the world was responsible then the world would be a much better place. and this whole discussion wouldn't have to be here
Posted Dec 13, '12 at 6:33pm
Think what you want. Take almost any 8-9 year old and ask them what you should not do with a gun and I'll bet they can give pretty comprehensive answers.
No, it's not. This is what I'm talking about with you either/or attitude. It's not a case of guns being illegal and no one having them and guns being legal and everyone having them.
My stance is that more gun control would help, but making guns flat out illegal is going to cause as many problems as it could potentially fix. I'm not advocating everyone walking around with concealed firearms. I'm also saying that with the proper training and qualifications it can help in dire situations.
Making stuff illegal doesn't get rid of it. It just makes it so any law abiding citizen won't have one.
My response is virtually the same, except I'm not naive. The police can't be everywhere at once, and if people want to go through what should be a strenuous background checks and proper training courses to own a gun then they should be allowed to.
Of course it should be left to the police when possible, but this isn't a perfect world.
Yes, it does. Your point being? A crime is still a crime whether it's carried out with a gun or a knife. Obviously a gun is considered to be the more dangerous weapon. However, the point you're missing is that THE CRIMINAL DOESN'T CARE IF THE WEAPON THEY HAVE IS LEGAL OR NOT. They're going to use what they can get their hands on.
IF you were arguing that there should be more gun control in general, I would agree with you. You're not, however. You seem to think that labeling something as illegal will fix it. That might have worked, if it had been done 300 years ago before mass production was implemented.
I'll assume you mean ignorance. How am I being ignorant? You seem to think that anyone who takes a self defense course or two can suddenly disarm any attacker barehanded. That's what is ignorant.
So since baby crap green spray paint is a more hideous color that means that all spray paint that color should be banned because it can be used for more obnoxious graffiti? That's basically what you're arguing.
A crime is a crime. A murder is a murder. Whether it was done with a gun or knife does not change the fact that someone was robbed or killed.
Yes, a gun is more dangerous that a knife.
It would save one from a gunshot death, perhaps.
Basically, all you're doing is arguing that a crime committed with a gun is somehow worse than a crime committed with any other type of weapon.
It was just a list of other types of weapons. I'll grant that making a bomb isn't something you do on the spur of the moment.
I'm glad you think that reasoning is stupid.
Now if you could just pull out a mirror...because that's exactly what you're arguing. It doesn't matter if a murder is committed by a gun or a knife, there was still a murder.
Also, again, making guns illegal does not get rid of them.
Of course I want to, that doesn't mean I think that can happen.
Anyways, your solution of making guns illegal falls more into that category than what I think needs to be done.
Yes, I get that's what you want. I'm telling you that making guns illegal doesn't change that.
The UK is an ENTIRELY different place than the USA. Guns are prevalent here. You want to shut the barn door after the horse, cows, chickens and even ****roaches have already run out. It won't change anything.
I've said this before, in a perfect world, no guns would be better. We do not live in that world.
I'm not arguing with you that guns are more dangerous. I'm not arguing with you that guns are often more lethal. I'm not arguing with you that less guns is better.
What I am arguing with you is that making guns illegal will fix nothing.
Posted Dec 13, '12 at 6:50pm
The USA banned alcohol and that made the situation worse. But there are controls on alcohol, eg needing proof you are of legal age to buy, and alcohol awareness courses to educate about the dangers of drinking too much.
Posted Dec 13, '12 at 8:40pm
Give people a time limit to give up their fire arms voluntarily.
Posted Dec 13, '12 at 8:46pm
then the switzerland option is your option.
there are cameras everywhere these days. they dont need to be there right away. you can go to the police a few hours latter and they still have the duty to find this person.
and a knife is way easyer to dodge and survive then a bullet.
making guns illegal wont change this the next day. it will take years befor this change happens.
dont think it came up in this topic. but in a previous one i agreed that under heavy control and bureaucracy, gun permissions should be allowed.
apart from getting freezed what is a natural response when something like this happens. yes everyone can learn to defend himself against knifes.
i c that different.
no i say a knife or any other type of weapon (except crossbows) are better survivable. and that you should try to make those the criminals fav. weapon and not guns.
i go past the crimes part and move on to the victims survival part. because that is what matters to me. i dont care about the crimes. i care for the victim of it.
a murder is a murder. if someone really want to kill someone. he will. even if he used a spoon. in those cases it doesn't matter. but like we both stated befor. not all crimes are murder plans to begin whit. i'm talking about the other cases where the criminal is not out for murder. but out for money or whatever.
but steps in that direction have to be made. right?
now i'm confused... did you just agree whit me. or do i read it wrong?
so you agree whit my other statement that the usa can't be saved anymore?
for that you use crime rates. and i look past crime rates.
i know it might sounds wierd from some1 that calls 5 billion deaths tomorrow, a good thing. and for someone that doesn't care about deaths at all. but i like most of the living people.
why fight? you have a knife. and he doesn't.
paper spray. non lethal defense FTW!
well it does.
alcohol and guns are the same now?
the alcohol reason is a good reason for marijuana legalization.
Posted Dec 13, '12 at 9:18pm
...no, it doesn't.
That doesn't really help in cases of ****/murder.
Not everyone, but given enough training most could yes. They don't learn in a few classes though, like you've implied previously.
I agree with you on an idealistic level. I don't agree with your stance of making guns illegal though.
No, I think that a solution that worked for the UK isn't going to work for the USA because of how prevalent guns are here. It's an entirely different thing to ban something before everyone has it and to ban something after everyone has it.
Yes, there is that too.
I never said there weren't.
The prohibition thing doesn't carry over well to guns. You don't consume guns and you can't produce guns in your basement. Alcohol and marijuana are fundamentally almost the same thing,
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