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Pashtunistan

Posted Dec 18, '12 at 12:06pm

thepunisher93

thepunisher93

1,859 posts

they have, but no longer. currently most of the afghan government is dominated by other ethnic groups.

govrnment standing on NATO crutches.

 

Posted Dec 18, '12 at 1:15pm

wontgetmycatnip

wontgetmycatnip

95 posts

Did you read the article? It's not about Palestine.

It was an analogy, maybe a bad one.

They may or may not, but the fact is, that the taliban will be easily defeated if Pashtunistan is created. right now USA is wasting money on Afghanistan and Pakistan, since the money doesn't get to Pashtun areas. Basically what they are doing now is indirectly fighting talibans. in the other hand, if they used the same amount money to build a government in Pashtunistan, then the effort and money would go to directly fighting taliban. In that case will the defeat of taliban be assured.

How? They'll just fight over that bit of land, too.

 

Posted Dec 18, '12 at 1:36pm

nichodemus

nichodemus

12,177 posts

Knight

It was an analogy, maybe a bad one.

Ah ok, thanks for clarifying.

in the other hand, if they used the same amount money to build a government in Pashtunistan, then the effort and money would go to directly fighting taliban. In that case will the defeat of taliban be assured.

Giving a group bent on the spread of radical Islam world wide is never the best of plans.

 

Posted Dec 18, '12 at 1:56pm

DSM

DSM

799 posts

It isn't forbidden.

I dont know if it is or not, but the extremist considered it forbidden. Especially the Taliban.

On the other hand, Afghans do have a strong sense of nationalism, coming from years of invasions from various powers, Britain, the USSR, the US.

They may have it, but since they think it forbidden, they dont work on it.

A key distinguishing factors between the two Talibans is that the Afghans insist they have a strictly local agenda of liberating their homeland

exactly, a civil war will happened after USA leave Afghanistan.

In contrast, the Pakistani Taliban has embraced al Qaeda’s vision of pan-Islamic rule, and it has increasingly targeted the Pakistani state instead of helping its Afghan brethren, aiming to set up an Islamic Caliphate so to speak.

And how do you remove these people from power. By creating Pashtunistan and supporting modern Pashtuns. This way nationalism will replace extremism from Talibans.

No it isn't. The Taliban is a bizarre mix of both Pashtun tribal culture and strict Islam. Giving them a state will only allow them to consolidate power further,

Why didnt it fail in Afghanistan. I mean the support of a government. Basically USA will be doing the same thing in Pashtunistan, as they did in Afghanistan. The difference is however in the effectiveness. USA will be fighting Talibans and liberating the oppressed people directly.
In other words, the strict Islam would be replaced with Pashtun culture and modern Islam.

I seriously fail to see logic behind this

Now look it in this way. All support Afghanistan is receiving is given to Tajik, Hazara, Usbek etc. since they are the majority in the afghan government. The support Pakistan is receiving is given to punjab the same reason as above. Which make the pashtun population still live in poverty. The main source of Taliban recruiting is in fact the poor people, which is most likely send to madrassas. In other words, the amount of support Afghanistan and Pakistan is receiving isn't gone to the effort to reduce the Taliban capability, or liberating it people for that matter.

By creating Pashtunistan it will reduce the cost of war both to Pakistan and Afghanistan, and of course USA. And democracy will be secured in the entire region.

 

Posted Dec 18, '12 at 2:02pm

DSM

DSM

799 posts

How? They'll just fight over that bit of land, too.

You do know, they are not fighting each other, right?
They already own the land and this way spreading the extremism.

Giving a group bent on the spread of radical Islam world wide is never the best of plans.

I am not saying to support Taliban, but creating a government for the modern Pashtuns, and give support to Pashtun nationalism instead of extremism. This way they can spread the nationalistic pride to the rest of Pashtuns, which will replace the Talibans and it supporters.

 

Posted Dec 18, '12 at 3:19pm

wontgetmycatnip

wontgetmycatnip

95 posts

You do know, they are not fighting each other, right?

If that is the case, it is simply because they are not actively trying to fight over the same piece of land currently.

I am not saying to support Taliban, but creating a government for the modern Pashtuns, and give support to Pashtun nationalism instead of extremism.

Nationalist movements that are politically successful are almost always extremist and/or power hungry. If we succeeded at creating "Pashtun Nationalism" we would simply be replacing one problematic group with another.

 

Posted Dec 18, '12 at 3:34pm

DSM

DSM

799 posts

If that is the case, it is simply because they are not actively trying to fight over the same piece of land currently.

I am beginning to think that you dont know who Taliban is...

Nationalist movements that are politically successful are almost always extremist and/or power hungry. If we succeeded at creating "Pashtun Nationalism" we would simply be replacing one problematic group with another.

You dont need to be extremist to be a nationalist. I bet any European or American is nationalist, it basically a sense of pride for the nation. So I doubt it will do any harm to give the ethnic group a national pride. The USA is doing the same in Afghanistan, and actually that is the main strategy there.

 

Posted Dec 18, '12 at 8:41pm

nichodemus

nichodemus

12,177 posts

Knight

They may have it, but since they think it forbidden, they dont work on it.

It doesn't matter, one way or another, the Afghan Taliban want to drive the US out, which has always been they're stated aim. Clouding it with Pashtun nationalism is drivel.  The Pashtun at any rate have a fiercely independent tribal nature, but they're main aim, has been the ousting of NATO forces, and not a homeland.

And how do you remove these people from power. By creating Pashtunistan and supporting modern Pashtuns. This way nationalism will replace extremism from Talibans.

Nationalism is never good. And furthermore, as has been explained earlier, ever since the 1970s, Muslims have been on the whole, suspicious of these Western ''isms'', due to the failures of secular governments all around the Muslim world, including Afghanistan. When the Soviets were driven out, that sent a powerful psychological message that deeply embedded religious fundamentalism even more.

Why didnt it fail in Afghanistan. I mean the support of a government. Basically USA will be doing the same thing in Pashtunistan, as they did in Afghanistan. The difference is however in the effectiveness. USA will be fighting Talibans and liberating the oppressed people directly.
In other words, the strict Islam would be replaced with Pashtun culture and modern Islam.

Afghanistan didn't fail? Look at the state of it now. The Afghan government will never properly stay in power without NATO forces in place. Pashtun culture IS the source of such strict Islam, in Afghanistan. In fact, the Taliban's extremely strict and anti-modern ideology has been described as an 'innovative form of sharia combining Pashtun tribal codes,' or Pashtunwali, with radical Deobandi interpretations of Islam.

 

Posted Dec 18, '12 at 8:42pm

nichodemus

nichodemus

12,177 posts

Knight

You dont need to be extremist to be a nationalist. I bet any European or American is nationalist, it basically a sense of pride for the nation. So I doubt it will do any harm to give the ethnic group a national pride. The USA is doing the same in Afghanistan, and actually that is the main strategy there.

To be nationalist today is generally referring not only to the love of the nation (Patriotism), but also a sense of superiority over others.

 

Posted Dec 19, '12 at 7:42am

thepunisher93

thepunisher93

1,859 posts

The main source of Taliban recruiting is in fact the poor people, which is most likely send to madrassas. In other words, the amount of support Afghanistan and Pakistan is receiving isn't gone to the effort to reduce the Taliban capability, or liberating it people for that matter.

You fail to see that the main reason that more and more talibans are being recruited is the presence of foreign forces in afghanistan and drone strikes in pakistani tribal areas.
These people live and die by revenge.

 
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