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Pashtunistan

Posted Dec 22, '12 at 12:11pm

nichodemus

nichodemus

13,708 posts

Knight

The politicians may be corrupt, but the economy will be growing. And the corruption will eventually fade away to, when the people gets more educated.


That's not a correlation. Look at half of Europe. Furthermore, Afghanistan's growth is largely down to donor aid, and not governmental efforts. The current account deficit is largely financed with the donor money, only a small portion is provided directly to the government budget.

As I said before they get the support from Pashtuns because Pakistan and Afghan government fail to support that particular ethnic group. The reason it is mostly made up of Pashtun is because of the poverty, since that is the main source of Taliban recruiting. Taliban dont even follow the Pashtunwali, which is the main thing to be considered a Pashtun.


Punisher has explained quite nicely, that the notion of Pashtunwali as a chivalric code is a fraud.

Pashtuns have a high risk for continued rebellion. They are geographically concentrated, have multiple militant organizations with standing militias, and do not feel they are adequately represented in the current government. Furthermore, the Afghan government remains weak and unable to exert control over extensive areas of territory. Pashtuns also resent the continued presence of U.S. military personnel in the country.

The problem is not Pashtun nationalism per se. It's the inability of the government to represent and rule all people, not just Pashtuns, which remains unable to maintain control of large swathes of the country. The Pashtuns are by themselves, the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan.

Because country building is not made in Pashtun areas. The economy is growing everywhere in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but not in the Pashtun areas. The only thing they ever gets from these two government and the international force is rain consist of bombs. If the government is centered in those areas then the nation building will happen in those areas.
In the other hand these people need a nation where they can speak their own language and educate themselves on their own history. A nation where they can follow their own culture and be themselves.


If that is so, why aren't the Tajiks (25% of the population, and surely the smaller) moving out to start their own nation, or join Tajikistan? Karzai himself is a Pashtun. Abdullah Abdullah, the candidate with the second most votes in the 2009 elections is half Pashtun. If we look at the Afghan cabinet in recent years, Pashtuns have always been represented.

Pashtun anger can be quelled as you said, via economic growth, prudent government, and the defeat of the Taliban, or the co-opting of them in the government. There is no need to carve out a new state for them, which would only make it easier for the Taliban to find new bases of power, as these areas are hotbeds of their support. Creating Pashtunistan is furthermore, not a guarantee of good governance, that can slowly turn the tide against the Taliban, the nation will still be on the lifeline of American support and donors.

I didnt say they started it. Mullah Mohammed Omar started it, but USA, Pakistan and Saudi was indirectly involved since they funded them and increased extremist influence.


As I said before, the Taliban and Taliban mentality didnt exist in Pashtun people before the Soviet invasion. They got it only because USA and Pakistan basically forced it into them, since the extremist apparently fought for Americans better.

Then you have no idea what kind of brainwashing was done in the religious schools. And by support the extremist, you are giving them bigger influence.
It actually the same thing Iran is doing in western Afghanistan. They are only supporting people who are pro-Iran. This way they increase they influence throughout Afghanistan.


It is ambiguous who these ''pro-Iran'' people were, and given what was on the discussion plate, it did seem to be insinuation on your part that the Iranians supported the Taliban.
 

Posted Dec 22, '12 at 12:28pm

thepunisher93

thepunisher93

1,863 posts

And in which way does that relate to Pashtunistan?
1. The pakistani police/military could have made the tattoo to decrease the support of Taliban.
2. It was mention the guy was a foreigner, and he could have joined Taliban without them knowing him having the tattoo.
3. He could be an ordinary person who joined Taliban because of racism/mistreatment of Pakistan soldiers/police.
In any case, if anything it just support my argument on creating Pasthunistan.

and you just don't join taliban without accepting their faith refer to my previous post on this topic.
That war wasn't religious motivated, but was for Independence and freedom. Another reason for creating Pashtunistan.

How is rthis a reasoin for creating pashtunistan?
Same question for quote before this one.
It is a small part of their culture. It just one part of the code out of ten(1/10). The difference is, people tend to forget the good deeds people are doing, and that why they only got known for revenge.
Do you know Marcus Luttrell? He was saved from Taliban by Pashtuns, because of Pashtunwali called Nanawatai.
The team could not establish consistent communication, however, other than for a period long enough to indicate that they were under attack. Three of the four team members were killed, and the only survivor, Marcus Luttrell, was left unconscious with a number of fractures, a broken back, numerous shrapnel wounds, and later a gunshot. He would soon regain consciousness and evade the pursuing enemy, with the help of local Pashtun villagers, who would eventually send an emissary to the nearest U.S. base to secure his safe release, and ultimately save his life.
If Pakistan dont like Pashtuns that much and think they are just revenge driven so called savages, then why dont you give the land back to Afghanistan? Pashtuns are called ethnic afghans, so I doubt the afghan government would mind to take back what originally was theirs.

Have you been between them? Have you even taslked to them?
or you are just beliving on books?
Seriously dude, I don't say they don't have good deeds but revenge is the most prominent of their codes.
I'll tell you a story.
Two pathan families got in a squabble, on family A were seven brothers, on family B, two.
B killed one of A.
A retaliated with killing both of B's.
B's cousines retaliated then A's cousins retaliated.
Fast forward 30 years and the youngest of A's(last survivour of original families) comes out of prison after 14 years and is whacked by B's kinsmen.
and the saga contnues.
If Pakistan dont like Pashtuns that much and think they are just revenge driven so called savages, then why dont you give the land back to Afghanistan? Pashtuns are called ethnic afghans, so I doubt the afghan government would mind to take back what originally was theirs.

Now you are trolling and putting words in my mouth. Where did I call themn revenge filled Savages?
and as for the border's matter, what is done, is done we will not officially give up our soil which is our's by virtue of an agreement with tribal elders.
It is already a safe haven for them. In the other hand when Pashtuns gets independence the extremism would fade away, the same reason I have stated earlier. And beside the only reason there is attacks on Pakistan is because of their military presence in Pashtunwkha, so once it gets Independence attacks will also stop.

Pakistan is there because of USA and many times we had tried to make peace but US always sabotages peace talks.
Also you are mixing up two places, Pakhtunkhwah is province of pakistan and we always have kept our presence there hell, many military academies are there what you are talking about is FATA.
The government would have easier to control the land, since they will be concentrating on it own people instead of everything else.

No, if you use force with these people, they will rip you apart and any centralised govrn is not possible there.

I seriously doubt you have much knowledge about this subject.
 

Posted Dec 22, '12 at 1:30pm

DSM

DSM

1,329 posts

and you just don't join taliban without accepting their faith refer to my previous post on this topic.


It not like they strip the person to check for tattoos...

How is rthis a reasoin for creating pashtunistan?


So they can be free and independent...

Have you been between them? Have you even taslked to them?
or you are just beliving on books?


My classmate is a Pashtun. I go to a gym where there is allot of Pashtuns. I have visited Pashtun families, so yes I have talked to them. And they act according to the pashtunwali, so what I have read is confirmed.

I'll tell you a story.
Two pathan families got in a squabble, on family A were seven brothers, on family B, two.
B killed one of A.
A retaliated with killing both of B's.
B's cousines retaliated then A's cousins retaliated.
Fast forward 30 years and the youngest of A's(last survivour of original families) comes out of prison after 14 years and is whacked by B's kinsmen.
and the saga contnues.


oh my dear god, I hope seriously you are not serious here...This what I would call racism.

Now you are trolling and putting words in my mouth. Where did I call themn revenge filled Savages?


When did you not? You even did in this post of yours
I'll tell you a story.
Two pathan families got in a squabble, on family A were seven brothers, on family B, two.
B killed one of A.
A retaliated with killing both of B's.
B's cousines retaliated then A's cousins retaliated.
Fast forward 30 years and the youngest of A's(last survivour of original families) comes out of prison after 14 years and is whacked by B's kinsmen.
and the saga contnues.


and as for the border's matter, what is done, is done we will not officially give up our soil which is our's by virtue of an agreement with tribal elders.


This is an unrecognized border. Not afghans, not Pashtuns no one have accepted it and no one likes it. If you believe this land belongs to Pakistan, then stop complaining about Israel and its lands.

Pakistan is there because of USA and many times we had tried to make peace but US always sabotages peace talks.


In which way did USA sabotage peace talks? Pakistan need to stop putting blame on USA and start take responsibility of it actions.

No, if you use force with these people, they will rip you apart


Pakistan have made it a sport to shoot these people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO3bMiRA8zE

centralised govrn is not possible there.


Says you, because you dont want your country to loss a portion of your unrecognized land.

I seriously doubt you have much knowledge about this subject.


You are the one who degrading an entire ethnic group...
And again you doubt, and doubt isn't a fact. It just your opinion. I also seriously doubt you know anything about it, but it doesn't matter, because it has nothing to do with topic.
 

Posted Dec 24, '12 at 6:57am

nichodemus

nichodemus

13,708 posts

Knight

We're going around in circles here. I'm still waiting for a reply for my previous post.

The tribes of FATA (mostly Pashtun), mainly support the Pakistani government, and desire more autonomy, but not full independence. Nearly nine out every ten people in FATA oppose the U.S. military pursuing al-Qaeda and the Taliban in their region. Nearly 70 percent of FATA residents instead want the Pakistani military alone to fight Taliban and al-Qaeda militants in the tribal areas. For example, they demand to be considered a full province with more autonomous powers that can't be overruled by federal control, yet stop short of calling for independence.

Unemployment is very high in FATA, with only 20 percent of respondents in our survey saying they were working full-time. Indeed, lack of jobs was chosen as the most important problem in the region by 95 percent of those surveyed. This was closely followed by lack of schools, good roads and security, poor health care and corruption of local official officials. Lesser problems to be addressed in descending order of importance were: drone attacks, Taliban and foreign fighters and problems involving refugees.

These do not require the establishment of an independent state to solve, these are problems that are common throughout Pakistan and Afghanistan. It's no panacea or silver bullet that an independent state will miraculously spring up economic growth if corruption and poor governance is endemic throughout the entire bureacracy, Pashtun or non-Pashtun.

 

Posted Dec 24, '12 at 8:52pm

Freakenstein

Freakenstein

9,662 posts

Moderator

Deleted several posts making emotional attacks on other users thus throwing the topic into off-topic territory. Continue from this point on and remember that true debaters know when Appeals to Emotion get too far. At that point, you lose yourself and suddenly stop using logic to back up your arguments. I ain't having none of that negative, derailing crap in here.

 

Posted Dec 24, '12 at 8:55pm

wontgetmycatnip

wontgetmycatnip

95 posts

How was my post an "emotional attack?"

 
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