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DSM
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanley-weiss/pashtun-nationalism_b_2117534.html

Pashtun/pathan is a ethnic group in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Do you think creating Pashtunistan will defeat Taliban and create stability to the region?

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DSM
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What is missing from the current discussion is the semi racial element. The Taleban claim to welcome those who follow the path of Allah, but as is sadly inevitable in all exclusive doctrines, outsiders are seen as less than human. Much of the conflict which exists now is drawn upon tribal lines, but not in the way one would think. It is more similar to racism/xenophobia than tribalism in terms of the way if affects the collective behaviour of the Afghans as a whole. This is not lost upon the non Pashtun Afghans who have much to lose should the Taleban return to power. Sure, they dislike the duplicity of ISAF, and the corruption of Kabul, but at the end of the day, these institutions aren't going to chop off their feet for the simple reason of inhabiting a different region of the country. As cynical as this may sound, it might be wise for ISAF and Karzai to play on this fear in order to diminish support for Islamic fundamentalism in Helmand..


That is not true. The Taliban was very religious people and racism and nationalism was forbidden under their rule. If they were racist why would they allow al-qaeder to stay and make military training. I do agree on they were harsh against shia muslims, but when it came to suni muslims they didnt care who they were as long they followed the strict Islam they had.
They didnt just chop of hands because of race or the region they came from. The only times they chop hands was when people steal, no matter what race or where they came from. They had their strict Islamic laws which applied to all.
nichodemus
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Those you mention is Pashtun groups, beside the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. And they were all united/allied under the Taliban rule. Basically they fight for the same cause.


There have also been reports of clashes between members of the HIG and Taliban, and defection of HIG members to the Afghan government. Ten members of the groupâs "senior leadership" met in May 2004 with President Hamid Karzai and "publicly announced their rejection of Hezb-e-Islamiâs alliance with al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

Islamic Jihad Union


Itâs led by Tohir Yuldashev. They split from the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU); trains in Taliban and AQ camps in western Pakistan. Their goal is to overthrow the Afghanistan and Uzbekistan elected governments. They are largely a bandit operation supported by criminal activity and opium. They have overlapping but different goals from the Taliban.

As for the Haqqani Network, the group maintains a power base in the Pakistani tribal region of North Waziristan, across the border from Khost. Sirajuddin Haqqani told Reuters in March his group was under the overall command of Taliban leader Mullah Omar. U.S. officials believe the movement does not always accept Taliban authority and often acts independently.

That why creating a Pashtunistan will be a good idea, since the government would have the focus on its people.


No, the government would on paper have to focus on its own people. But most of the politicians from Afghanistan have proven utterly inept and corrupt.

I would like you to highlight where I wrote Iranians have supported Taliban. It seems like you keep ignoring my statements. You made up this statement, and from previous post were I explained several times that Talibans had nothing to do with Pashtuns.


Then you have no idea what kind of brainwashing was done in the religious schools. And by support the extremist, you are giving them bigger influence.
It actually the same thing Iran is doing in western Afghanistan. They are only supporting people who are pro-Iran. This way they increase they influence throughout Afghanistan.


What have Taliban anything to do with Pashtuns. You yourself said Taliban was in power. Talibans didnt do anything for Pashtun interest, and they were very against nationalism/patriotism. They even dedicated they victories from British Empire and Soviet union to Islam and not for afghans.


What have the Taliban got to do with the Pashtuns? The Taliban are almost completely made up of Pashtuns. Their support comes from the Pashtuns. It has everything to do with the Pashtuns. When they took over, at the national level, "all senior Tajik, Uzbek and Hazara bureaucrats" were replaced "with Pashtuns, whether qualified or not." Consequently, the ministries "by and large ceased to function.".

On the other hand, almost all Taliban are Pashtuns, but this certainly does not go the other way. Three fifths of the Afghan parliament is Pashtun and does not support the Taliban. As you yourself said, Pashtuns aren't the problem, the Taliban are.

So why the need for a homeland?

1 religious school doesn't form a group of more then hundreds thousand fighters. Pakistan and Saudi keep supporting them even after soviet was gone.

The money was used to support the extremist even before Taliban was formed. Pakistan, Saudi and USA was the one who supported them and there is plenty of documentary about that.


Course. There's no dispute about that. The dispute is your claim that the Taliban were started, not just funded, by external forces.
nichodemus
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The Taliban was very religious people and racism and nationalism was forbidden under their rule. If they were racist why would they allow al-qaeder to stay and make military training. I do agree on they were harsh against shia muslims, but when it came to suni muslims they didnt care who they were as long they followed the strict Islam they had.


Not racist or intolerant? They blew up the Bamiyan statues for being Buddhist. Mullah Mohammed Omar, the Taliban leader, issued a special edict on Feb 26 201 ordering the destruction of all non-Islamic statues.

The ''as long as they followed the strict Islam they had'' is in itself, showing their intolerance.
DSM
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No, the government would on paper have to focus on its own people. But most of the politicians from Afghanistan have proven utterly inept and corrupt.


The politicians may be corrupt, but the economy will be growing. And the corruption will eventually fade away to, when the people gets more educated.

Then you have no idea what kind of brainwashing was done in the religious schools. And by support the extremist, you are giving them bigger influence.
It actually the same thing Iran is doing in western Afghanistan. They are only supporting people who are pro-Iran. This way they increase they influence throughout Afghanistan.


I still cant find anywhere, where I have mention Iran supporting Taliban. I even gave link, where they says Irans support to western Afghanistan so they can increase their influence in the country.

What have the Taliban got to do with the Pashtuns? The Taliban are almost completely made up of Pashtuns. Their support comes from the Pashtuns.


As I said before they get the support from Pashtuns because Pakistan and Afghan government fail to support that particular ethnic group. The reason it is mostly made up of Pashtun is because of the poverty, since that is the main source of Taliban recruiting. Taliban dont even follow the Pashtunwali, which is the main thing to be considered a Pashtun.

So why the need for a homeland?


Because country building is not made in Pashtun areas. The economy is growing everywhere in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but not in the Pashtun areas. The only thing they ever gets from these two government and the international force is rain consist of bombs. If the government is centered in those areas then the nation building will happen in those areas.
In the other hand these people need a nation where they can speak their own language and educate themselves on their own history. A nation where they can follow their own culture and be themselves.

The dispute is your claim that the Taliban were started, not just funded, by external forces.


I didnt say they started it. Mullah Mohammed Omar started it, but USA, Pakistan and Saudi was indirectly involved since they funded them and increased extremist influence.

Not racist or intolerant? They blew up the Bamiyan statues for being Buddhist. Mullah Mohammed Omar, the Taliban leader, issued a special edict on Feb 26 201 ordering the destruction of all non-Islamic statues.

The ''as long as they followed the strict Islam they had'' is in itself, showing their intolerance.


I never claimed they were tolerance. I said they weren't racist. They didn't judge by race/ethnic, they judge by the religion. I agree 100% on they were intolerance.
nichodemus
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The politicians may be corrupt, but the economy will be growing. And the corruption will eventually fade away to, when the people gets more educated.


That's not a correlation. Look at half of Europe. Furthermore, Afghanistan's growth is largely down to donor aid, and not governmental efforts. The current account deficit is largely financed with the donor money, only a small portion is provided directly to the government budget.

As I said before they get the support from Pashtuns because Pakistan and Afghan government fail to support that particular ethnic group. The reason it is mostly made up of Pashtun is because of the poverty, since that is the main source of Taliban recruiting. Taliban dont even follow the Pashtunwali, which is the main thing to be considered a Pashtun.


Punisher has explained quite nicely, that the notion of Pashtunwali as a chivalric code is a fraud.

Pashtuns have a high risk for continued rebellion. They are geographically concentrated, have multiple militant organizations with standing militias, and do not feel they are adequately represented in the current government. Furthermore, the Afghan government remains weak and unable to exert control over extensive areas of territory. Pashtuns also resent the continued presence of U.S. military personnel in the country.

The problem is not Pashtun nationalism per se. It's the inability of the government to represent and rule all people, not just Pashtuns, which remains unable to maintain control of large swathes of the country. The Pashtuns are by themselves, the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan.

Because country building is not made in Pashtun areas. The economy is growing everywhere in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but not in the Pashtun areas. The only thing they ever gets from these two government and the international force is rain consist of bombs. If the government is centered in those areas then the nation building will happen in those areas.
In the other hand these people need a nation where they can speak their own language and educate themselves on their own history. A nation where they can follow their own culture and be themselves.


If that is so, why aren't the Tajiks (25% of the population, and surely the smaller) moving out to start their own nation, or join Tajikistan? Karzai himself is a Pashtun. Abdullah Abdullah, the candidate with the second most votes in the 2009 elections is half Pashtun. If we look at the Afghan cabinet in recent years, Pashtuns have always been represented.

Pashtun anger can be quelled as you said, via economic growth, prudent government, and the defeat of the Taliban, or the co-opting of them in the government. There is no need to carve out a new state for them, which would only make it easier for the Taliban to find new bases of power, as these areas are hotbeds of their support. Creating Pashtunistan is furthermore, not a guarantee of good governance, that can slowly turn the tide against the Taliban, the nation will still be on the lifeline of American support and donors.

I didnt say they started it. Mullah Mohammed Omar started it, but USA, Pakistan and Saudi was indirectly involved since they funded them and increased extremist influence.


As I said before, the Taliban and Taliban mentality didnt exist in Pashtun people before the Soviet invasion. They got it only because USA and Pakistan basically forced it into them, since the extremist apparently fought for Americans better.

Then you have no idea what kind of brainwashing was done in the religious schools. And by support the extremist, you are giving them bigger influence.
It actually the same thing Iran is doing in western Afghanistan. They are only supporting people who are pro-Iran. This way they increase they influence throughout Afghanistan.


It is ambiguous who these ''pro-Iran'' people were, and given what was on the discussion plate, it did seem to be insinuation on your part that the Iranians supported the Taliban.
thepunisher93
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And in which way does that relate to Pashtunistan?
1. The pakistani police/military could have made the tattoo to decrease the support of Taliban.
2. It was mention the guy was a foreigner, and he could have joined Taliban without them knowing him having the tattoo.
3. He could be an ordinary person who joined Taliban because of racism/mistreatment of Pakistan soldiers/police.
In any case, if anything it just support my argument on creating Pasthunistan.

and you just don't join taliban without accepting their faith refer to my previous post on this topic.
That war wasn't religious motivated, but was for Independence and freedom. Another reason for creating Pashtunistan.

How is rthis a reasoin for creating pashtunistan?
Same question for quote before this one.
It is a small part of their culture. It just one part of the code out of ten(1/10). The difference is, people tend to forget the good deeds people are doing, and that why they only got known for revenge.
Do you know Marcus Luttrell? He was saved from Taliban by Pashtuns, because of Pashtunwali called Nanawatai.
The team could not establish consistent communication, however, other than for a period long enough to indicate that they were under attack. Three of the four team members were killed, and the only survivor, Marcus Luttrell, was left unconscious with a number of fractures, a broken back, numerous shrapnel wounds, and later a gunshot. He would soon regain consciousness and evade the pursuing enemy, with the help of local Pashtun villagers, who would eventually send an emissary to the nearest U.S. base to secure his safe release, and ultimately save his life.
If Pakistan dont like Pashtuns that much and think they are just revenge driven so called savages, then why dont you give the land back to Afghanistan? Pashtuns are called ethnic afghans, so I doubt the afghan government would mind to take back what originally was theirs.

Have you been between them? Have you even taslked to them?
or you are just beliving on books?
Seriously dude, I don't say they don't have good deeds but revenge is the most prominent of their codes.
I'll tell you a story.
Two pathan families got in a squabble, on family A were seven brothers, on family B, two.
B killed one of A.
A retaliated with killing both of B's.
B's cousines retaliated then A's cousins retaliated.
Fast forward 30 years and the youngest of A's(last survivour of original families) comes out of prison after 14 years and is whacked by B's kinsmen.
and the saga contnues.
If Pakistan dont like Pashtuns that much and think they are just revenge driven so called savages, then why dont you give the land back to Afghanistan? Pashtuns are called ethnic afghans, so I doubt the afghan government would mind to take back what originally was theirs.

Now you are trolling and putting words in my mouth. Where did I call themn revenge filled Savages?
and as for the border's matter, what is done, is done we will not officially give up our soil which is our's by virtue of an agreement with tribal elders.
It is already a safe haven for them. In the other hand when Pashtuns gets independence the extremism would fade away, the same reason I have stated earlier. And beside the only reason there is attacks on Pakistan is because of their military presence in Pashtunwkha, so once it gets Independence attacks will also stop.

Pakistan is there because of USA and many times we had tried to make peace but US always sabotages peace talks.
Also you are mixing up two places, Pakhtunkhwah is province of pakistan and we always have kept our presence there hell, many military academies are there what you are talking about is FATA.
The government would have easier to control the land, since they will be concentrating on it own people instead of everything else.

No, if you use force with these people, they will rip you apart and any centralised govrn is not possible there.

I seriously doubt you have much knowledge about this subject.
DSM
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and you just don't join taliban without accepting their faith refer to my previous post on this topic.


It not like they strip the person to check for tattoos...

How is rthis a reasoin for creating pashtunistan?


So they can be free and independent...

Have you been between them? Have you even taslked to them?
or you are just beliving on books?


My classmate is a Pashtun. I go to a gym where there is allot of Pashtuns. I have visited Pashtun families, so yes I have talked to them. And they act according to the pashtunwali, so what I have read is confirmed.

I'll tell you a story.
Two pathan families got in a squabble, on family A were seven brothers, on family B, two.
B killed one of A.
A retaliated with killing both of B's.
B's cousines retaliated then A's cousins retaliated.
Fast forward 30 years and the youngest of A's(last survivour of original families) comes out of prison after 14 years and is whacked by B's kinsmen.
and the saga contnues.


oh my dear god, I hope seriously you are not serious here...This what I would call racism.

Now you are trolling and putting words in my mouth. Where did I call themn revenge filled Savages?


When did you not? You even did in this post of yours
I'll tell you a story.
Two pathan families got in a squabble, on family A were seven brothers, on family B, two.
B killed one of A.
A retaliated with killing both of B's.
B's cousines retaliated then A's cousins retaliated.
Fast forward 30 years and the youngest of A's(last survivour of original families) comes out of prison after 14 years and is whacked by B's kinsmen.
and the saga contnues.


and as for the border's matter, what is done, is done we will not officially give up our soil which is our's by virtue of an agreement with tribal elders.


This is an unrecognized border. Not afghans, not Pashtuns no one have accepted it and no one likes it. If you believe this land belongs to Pakistan, then stop complaining about Israel and its lands.

Pakistan is there because of USA and many times we had tried to make peace but US always sabotages peace talks.


In which way did USA sabotage peace talks? Pakistan need to stop putting blame on USA and start take responsibility of it actions.

No, if you use force with these people, they will rip you apart


Pakistan have made it a sport to shoot these people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO3bMiRA8zE

centralised govrn is not possible there.


Says you, because you dont want your country to loss a portion of your unrecognized land.

I seriously doubt you have much knowledge about this subject.


You are the one who degrading an entire ethnic group...
And again you doubt, and doubt isn't a fact. It just your opinion. I also seriously doubt you know anything about it, but it doesn't matter, because it has nothing to do with topic.
nichodemus
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We're going around in circles here. I'm still waiting for a reply for my previous post.

The tribes of FATA (mostly Pashtun), mainly support the Pakistani government, and desire more autonomy, but not full independence. Nearly nine out every ten people in FATA oppose the U.S. military pursuing al-Qaeda and the Taliban in their region. Nearly 70 percent of FATA residents instead want the Pakistani military alone to fight Taliban and al-Qaeda militants in the tribal areas. For example, they demand to be considered a full province with more autonomous powers that can't be overruled by federal control, yet stop short of calling for independence.

Unemployment is very high in FATA, with only 20 percent of respondents in our survey saying they were working full-time. Indeed, lack of jobs was chosen as the most important problem in the region by 95 percent of those surveyed. This was closely followed by lack of schools, good roads and security, poor health care and corruption of local official officials. Lesser problems to be addressed in descending order of importance were: drone attacks, Taliban and foreign fighters and problems involving refugees.

These do not require the establishment of an independent state to solve, these are problems that are common throughout Pakistan and Afghanistan. It's no panacea or silver bullet that an independent state will miraculously spring up economic growth if corruption and poor governance is endemic throughout the entire bureacracy, Pashtun or non-Pashtun.

Freakenstein
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Deleted several posts making emotional attacks on other users thus throwing the topic into off-topic territory. Continue from this point on and remember that true debaters know when Appeals to Emotion get too far. At that point, you lose yourself and suddenly stop using logic to back up your arguments. I ain't having none of that negative, derailing crap in here.

wontgetmycatnip
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How was my post an "emotional attack?"

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