ForumsWEPRGun control in the US

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theEPICgameKING
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theEPICgameKING
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Discuss. General Tavern rules apply. (No mudslinging, be respectful, etc.)
I'll open with the statement that people should not have guns. No one at all, except the armed forces, and even then, keep the guns on the bases. Cops should carry riot shields and armor instead of guns. If they need crowd control, use Water Cannons.
Supporting evidence: the following skit:
What's your reason?
Setting: A gun shop, modern day.
A Customer walks into the gun shop and asks the Shopkeeper, "Hi, i'd like to buy a gun please."
The Shopkeeper pulls out an application form and asks the customer "Alright, what's your reason for wanting to buy a gun?"
The Customer says "I need one for personal protection."
The Shopkeeper nods. "I have just the thing for you, I guarantee you cannot get any more personal protection than this baby right here. What i'm about to show you offers so much protection, it can stop a shotgun shell."
The customer, very interested, stares at a full-size Riot Shield, the kind the police use. He scoffs. "That's not what I want, I want a gun!"
The Shopkeeper shrugs. "Are you sure? This fine piece of equipment will protect you more than a gun ever will! It's very strong, reinforced titanium and kevlar..." by now, the angry Customer has left.
Later, another Customer enters. "Hi, I need a gun."
Again, the Shopkeeper clicks his pen and pulls out an application form. "For what reason?" he asks.
The Customer hesitates, than says "Hunting."
The shopkeeper smiles. "Of course! I love to hunt. Hunting is a wonderful sport. I guarantee that this item will give you the maximum amount of satisfaction you can ever get from hunting! Here, this is the sport at its peak." And he pulls out a Crossbow, complete with crosshairs for better accuracy.
The customer shakes his head. "No, I want a gun." he states.
The shopkeeper reluctantly puts away the Crossbow. "Are you sure? With a gun, it's so...boring, just pulling a trigger. And it's unfair to the animal, with this you give the deer a chance and have to chase it for up to an hour, just like the Native Americans did back in the day! Unless of course..." He fails to finish his sentence, as the pissed off customer has left in a huff.
Later, a third customer walks in. "Hi, I'd like to buy a gun." he says.
The shopkeeper holds his pen at the ready. "For what reason, sir?" he asks.
The customer glares. "I dont need a reason, read the god **** second amendment "THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS." It's in the constitution you idiot!
The shopkeeper merely smiles. "Of course, I have the perfect thing for you. This gun is covered under Second Amendment laws, guaranteed!" And he holds up a 200-year-old, civil-war-era musket, complete with rusty bayonet.
The customer shrieks. "No, man! I want a Glock, a shotgun, something better than that civil war crap!"
The shopkeeper merely smiles. "I'm sorry sir, please come back when they update the second amendment to include those types of guns. Here, i'll even give you a discount..." the shopkeeper holds out a discount to the enraged customer, who tears it in half and leaves.
Fourthly, another Customer walks in. "I really need a gun, now." He says.
The Shopkeeper holds his pen and application form ready. "For what reason, sir?" he asks.
Instead of stating his reason this time, the Customer snatches the application form and looks at it. There, in the spot titled "Reasons" is a circle for "other".
"Other! That's my reason!" the Customer declares triumphantly.
The shopkeeper shrugs. "Very good answer sir." he says, while pressing a button under the counter. Two cops arrive at the shop in less than a minute and cuff the Customer.
"Hey! What the *PROFANITY* ARE YOU *PROFANITY* GUYS DOING? I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG!" He yells, almost breaking the glass of the windows.
"Actually, you have." The Shopkeeper begins. "the "other" reason, by exclusion of the other reason, can only include wanting to kill or rob someone. Therefore, you were thinking about commiting a crime when you selected "Other" as your reason. Caught you red-handed, trying to buy the tools necessary to commiting a crime. You confessed to it when you selected "Other"! Take him downtown, please." The cops nod and take the Customer away. The last thing he hears from the Shopkeeper is "Oh, and I knew it was you all those times!"

Moral of the story: You do NOT need a gun for a particular activity. In any given activity (And I challenge you to give me a valid, legal activity for which you would need to personally own a gun), there are many other options. Why buy a gun for personal protection when a Riot Shield blocks shotgun shells? Why buy a gun for hunting when the point of hunting (and every other sport) is satisfaction, and since you get more satisfaction with more challenge, and since a crossbow offers more challenge than a gun, you'll get more satisfaction with the crossbow. Why buy a gun based on the Second Amendment when the Colonial-age guns were either giant cannons or black-powder, muzzle-loading Muskets? Did the Founding Fathers have AR-15's, and SPAZ-12 shotguns,And AK 47s, not to mention all the accessories like laser scopes and hollow-point bullets? I dont think so!

The only way you can disprove my argument is to give me a valid, LEGAL activity which requires you to personally own a gun. This excludes Skeet-shooting, because the facility can and should/will provide the gun. Until anyone can do that, YOU DONT NEED A GUN, NO ONE NEEDS GUNS! They're WAY too dangerous and make it too easy to kill someone! Why have something you dont need?

  • 1,127 Replies
SSTG
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SSTG
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nicho, there's no point in arguing with gun lovers, they'll never let go of their paranoid way of thinking even though you show them facts and statistics, the same way they are still using an obsolete measuring system even though the rest of the World has moved on.
In their mind they're always right. People get tired of talking to a wall so that's why a terrorist organization like the NRA exist in the first place.
Their views on politics is also the same.... so boring.
Whenever you go out in a crowd, you'll always recognized a Conservative.
It's the one who never smiles, look offended and his pissed off against the rest of the World, hates gays, is against the right of a **** victim to get an abortion. You should see a clear pattern by now.

thebloxxer
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thebloxxer
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Just look at what we have outlawed before. We made alcohol illegal back in the late 20's- early 30's, it didn't help. We have outlawed illegal drugs, not saying that hasen't helped, but drugs are still widely used. Outlawing any kind of weaponery takes it out of law abiding citizens hands, while still being accesses by criminals. Criminals are still going to keep/ get access to all types of weapons even with a ban. When it comes down to a homeowner with a handgun versus a criminal with a assault rifle with body armor, the homeowner is at the disadvantage, and the police/military can't always be there to stop them (Not saying that their never there). All we need to do is make sure people with illness's or criminals can't get access to these weapons right from the shop without ID.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Not when robbers are prepared. Pistols are useless against body armor. Criminals know this.


Most crimes aren't perpetuated with such weapons. There is no use arming the entire population in a constant arms race that will spiral into more high profile shootings. Gun control cannot work by itself unless it is enforced strictly across all states, in tandem with other policies. A few of the guns (AK 47s) in the North Hollywood shootout were bought legally and then modified.

I cannot think of a situation where you would need an AK 47 if gun control is tightened properly. Starting off, the prevention of illegally purchasing guns via straw scam purchases from legal shops.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Just look at what we have outlawed before. We made alcohol illegal back in the late 20's- early 30's, it didn't help. We have outlawed illegal drugs, not saying that hasen't helped, but drugs are still widely used. Outlawing any kind of weaponery takes it out of law abiding citizens hands, while still being accesses by criminals.


No it won't. Alcohol and drugs were impossible to shut down because such contraband can be homemade and still turn up in decent to high quality. Guns cannot. Homemade guns cannot be made on such a scale that would satisfy the entire American population, and they would be in scrap quality.
wontgetmycatnip
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wontgetmycatnip
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nicho, there's no point in arguing with gun lovers, they'll never let go of their paranoid way of thinking even though you show them facts and statistics, the same way they are still using an obsolete measuring system even though the rest of the World has moved on.
In their mind they're always right. People get tired of talking to a wall so that's why a terrorist organization like the NRA exist in the first place.
Their views on politics is also the same.... so boring.
Whenever you go out in a crowd, you'll always recognized a Conservative.
It's the one who never smiles, look offended and his pissed off against the rest of the World, hates gays, is against the right of a **** victim to get an abortion. You should see a clear pattern by now.

Nice strawman there. You do realize that not every conservative is the same?
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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He's talking to me. It's not part of the discussion.

thebloxxer
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thebloxxer
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Nice point there about manufacturing. I guess if you look at earlier times before actual "factories", most weapons were usually handmade and more crude than today. I still believe we just need stronger laws on this, but thats just my opinion.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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most weapons were usually handmade and more crude than today.


Of course. But not on the scale of what people purchase today (270 million on the last count). So I doubt people can manufacture them themselves, or at least manufacture safe ones. Stronger gun laws are definitely needed though, agreed.
thebloxxer
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thebloxxer
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I think see what you mean. I cant see just ordinary citizens even come close to producing quanities of any weapons, let alone bigger ones such as the assault rifles or machine guns, for example.

AatosLiukkonen
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AatosLiukkonen
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But why someone will want a M4 Or a M16 in his house? defend his house from what? the Huns? Why would someone want to buy a Uzi? Its a good gun indeed, but for clearing bunkers, not for "defending your house". What would you do, spray the street to kill the 'invader'? Isnt a simple pistol is enough?


Nobody has ever bought an uzi, automatic or no, for defending their house. It is, quite simply, a "****s and giggles" weapon people buy (for extravagant amounts of money I might add) for fun. An M4 or M16? A legal, select fire weapon in either one of those categories can run someone upwards of $20,000, even more. A semi-automatic AR15 is already fairly expensive, with even base models costing upwards of $2,000, albeit that's for the good ones. No one, however, ever bought those for defending their home. They're good rifles, accurate and good for bringing people down. However, the much more important quality a rifle in that type possesses is a wonderful round for taking down gophers, a cheap round for shooting paper, and high magazine capacities. More importantly than all that? They're fun, plain and simple. I can shoot an AR15 or an AK47 or any other intermediate cartridge firearm all day, and I won't leave with a bruise like a .308 bolt action will do to me. They're great guns, and very few crimes are committed with them. 4% of murders are committed with rifles, including such weapons, and if every single one of that 4% was committed with an assault weapon, the enforcement of a ban would just cost insane amounts of money for an at most 4% decrease in crime.

In my opinion, a man will be able to buy a pistol and a small amount of ammo. That it. No one need massive amount of ammo is his garage for "defending his loved ones". A 9mm and 12 bullets its much more then enough.


12 rounds? Are you stupid? That's not even enough to fill a magazine, let alone keep someone qualified with the weapon. I can empty that much in less than five seconds, and then what do I do?

Ammo isn't worthwhile to restrict, plain and simple. Someone will get exactly the same effect with 10,000 rounds of 9mm as 17, because the magazine will only hold so much, and people aren't going to go and load up new magazines in the middle of a 30 second firefight.

Also, 9mm? Come on. .45 is better any day.

I love guns my self. I wish for an MP5 {dont ask me why MP5, I just felt in love with this gun}. But i know its not Logical to have one.


MP5s suck, just a heads up.

Also, if you have the money, why not buy one? Do you have plans to walk into a shopping mall and kill two or three people? Because let me tell you something, having a gun isn't going to make someone any more likely to commit murder. They don't turn people into monsters, and they sure as hell aren't going to turn people against every moral belief they possess because a gun is in their house.

that will spiral into more high profile shootings


How will arming normal people make them go kill other people? The safeguards that are already in place prevent the majority of crazy lunatics/terrorists from legally obtaining their weapons of choice.

I cannot think of a situation where you would need an AK 47


This is annoying. There is no need for a **** AK to begin with, but it's not a question of need. It's a question of want. Why SHOULDN'T I have an assault rifle if I have no plans to go and slaughter dozens of innocent people? Sure one lunatic every now and again will come along, buy a gun or steal it, and shoot a few people. However, these are not common occurrences, so why should millions of normal, happy people be punished because one person is a psychotic moron and wants to shoot the **** out of everything that moves and some things that don't?

Starting off, the prevention of illegally purchasing guns


So tell me, how does a law stop something when there is already a law that stops it? Laws don't mean something stops, it just means people go to jail if they break them. It's illegal to shoot school children, but that didn't stop the Connecticut school shooter, did it? It's illegal to have guns in a school, but what's that going to do? Make it easier to kill everyone, but more importantly, not a **** thing.

But not on the scale of what people purchase today (270 million on the last count)


If it cost five dollars to obtain and destroy every single one of those, we'd bankrupt the ATF. It's good that it doesn't cost five dollars though, isn't it? It costs a hell of a lot more, not to mention the potential loss of life by law enforcement shooting people who don't want to relinquish and getting shot at in return.

Stronger gun laws are definitely needed though, agreed.


Why? So I can't buy weapons that aren't going to hurt anyone that doesn't righteously deserve a lead salad? Crack down on psychopaths, make them illegal. Cracking down on the tools of their trade is just going to make them angrier, except now nobody even has the chance to stop them without going to prison on a 25 to life sentence.

All because they didn't want to get robbed.

Gun control is silly and pointless. Some gun laws cost enormous amounts of money to enforce for exactly zero gain, such as laws against .50 caliber rifles and automatic weapons. Any smart criminal is not going to use a weapon that weighs as much as his house or is empty in three seconds.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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How will arming normal people make them go kill other people? The safeguards that are already in place prevent the majority of crazy lunatics/terrorists from legally obtaining their weapons of choice.


The safeguards are not in place. The Connecticut shooter didn't buy his guns, but his mother did, and they fail to check his family's entire background. Preventing a mentally ill person access to guns whilst allowing his family to purchase them is pure irresponsibility.

This is annoying. There is no need for a **** AK to begin with, but it's not a question of need. It's a question of want. Why SHOULDN'T I have an assault rifle if I have no plans to go and slaughter dozens of innocent people? Sure one lunatic every now and again will come along, buy a gun or steal it, and shoot a few people. However, these are not common occurrences, so why should millions of normal, happy people be punished because one person is a psychotic moron and wants to shoot the **** out of everything that moves and some things that don't?


I want a nuke. But I'm not going to go and destroy someone's nation. Why can't I have it? I don't know about you, but your millions of ''wants'' seem extremely petty and selfish compared to a few dozen lives that can be saved.

If it cost five dollars to obtain and destroy every single one of those, we'd bankrupt the ATF. It's good that it doesn't cost five dollars though, isn't it? It costs a hell of a lot more, not to mention the potential loss of life by law enforcement shooting people who don't want to relinquish and getting shot at in return.


I don't think you have read it properly. No one is proposing banning and reigning in guns. We support stronger gun control, but not the banning of guns.

So tell me, how does a law stop something when there is already a law that stops it? Laws don't mean something stops, it just means people go to jail if they break them. It's illegal to shoot school children, but that didn't stop the Connecticut school shooter, did it? It's illegal to have guns in a school, but what's that going to do? Make it easier to kill everyone, but more importantly, not a **** thing.


Again, read the whole thread. Gun control is silly as a stand alone measure; it needs to be tied in with other policies to work.

Why? So I can't buy weapons that aren't going to hurt anyone that doesn't righteously deserve a lead salad? Crack down on psychopaths, make them illegal. Cracking down on the tools of their trade is just going to make them angrier, except now nobody even has the chance to stop them without going to prison on a 25 to life sentence.


Cracking down on psychopaths without stricter gun laws? This won't happen. Stricter gun laws, tighter and more thorough checks, occasional check ins by the authorities, nothing comes without a price. You want a gun, you're responsible for it. But unfortunately, many people aren't. They purchase guns from other states when their state prevents them from. I posted a statistic earlier, in the DoC, many of the guns used in crime were bought in other states where gun laws are laxer.

Gun control is silly and pointless. Some gun laws cost enormous amounts of money to enforce for exactly zero gain, such as laws against .50 caliber rifles and automatic weapons. Any smart criminal is not going to use a weapon that weighs as much as his house or is empty in three seconds.


No it isn't. Half the world has shown the States that gun control works, yet gun violence is still remaining roughly the same as a decade ago, without decreasing. This is worrisome, and is a problem.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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Most crimes aren't perpetuated with such weapons.

The point was 'body armor', not their guns. How will a 9mm fare against body armor? Even police pistols were useless.
AatosLiukkonen
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Preventing a mentally ill person access to guns whilst allowing his family to purchase them is pure irresponsibility.


So I'm guilty of what my children do? I'm guilty because of the sins of my father and his father before him? That's completely ridiculous.

Why can't I have it?


Why can't you? Well, for one it's not particularly entertaining, and secondly it's inherently dangerous. You don't need to pull the trigger for you or your family to fall over dead.

but your millions of ''wants'' seem extremely petty and selfish compared to a few dozen lives that can be saved.


Petty and selfish? If you're so selfless and irresponsible, don't buy a gun. I have a gun, my family has many more. Many of my friends have yet more guns. I don't recall any instances where they've murdered a dozen people, but I do recall instances where they've stuck a gun in someone's face who was trying to harm them or their property.

Many more lives are saved by responsible gun owners than are taken by criminals and terrorists.

We support stronger gun control, but not the banning of guns.


The difference being? Make guns stupidly expensive and difficult to use, and you're doing the same thing. I can own a fully automatic rifle, but I have to be extremely wealthy to own it. Most automatic weapons literally cost more than my car, and some cost more than my house.

Gun control is silly as a stand alone measure; it needs to be tied in with other policies to work.


Such as?

Stricter gun laws, tighter and more thorough checks


I'd say getting checked by both the ATF and FBI, and cleared by agents within said organizations is good enough. The gun goes on the record and is subject to any seizure by police as any other property is. No matter how thick the red tape is, nobody is going to suspect a 21 year old medical student is going to mow down a movie theater. If the person is clean, there's literally nothing you can do to prevent them from buying a gun.

occasional check ins by the authorities


Over my dead body. Police aren't stepping into my house with a warrant signed by a judge and a **** good reason for it. That would violate several constitutional amendments.

nothing comes without a price


Especially money, money nobody has.

You want a gun, you're responsible for it. But unfortunately, many people aren't


How do you prove responsibility? Well, they haven't shot anyone, held up convenience stores, mugged people, fired an AK through their neighbor's house, and for all we can tell, they're sane. Any of these things make it illegal for somebody to buy a gun, and gun dealers that sell them can look at decades behind bars themselves.

People can buy guns easy if they're law abiding, sane individuals. That's how law abiding citizens do things, lawfully. How is making gun laws stricter going to help? All those guns, all those places. Outright banning them won't work, ever, there's too many guns. Restricting the sale of guns won't help, as all the people you'd be restricting the guns to are already restricted. The laws cannot get any tighter without pointlessly butting into people's business.

They purchase guns from other states when their state prevents them from. I posted a statistic earlier, in the DoC, many of the guns used in crime were bought in other states where gun laws are laxer.


Ignoring the stupidly tight gun laws in DC and it's massive murder rate, that's illegal and a federal crime. Federal prison. Normal people don't do that or need to do that. Making it more illegal isn't going to help, and restricting isn't going to take the guns off the street. Those criminals are just going to spend a few extra hours going through an illicit dealer, or just stealing themselves a gun.

No it isn't. Half the world has shown the States that gun control works


As I like to point out in many arguments, America isn't Europe. America isn't China. America isn't Russia. We have always had guns, we always will. In every single ban on weapons or restriction, the crime rate almost never drops. Look at Detroit, Chicago, DC, New York City, Los Angeles, and compare to places like Atlanta, Memphis, or Houston. The gun laws are worlds different, yet crime is the same as anywhere. It's because criminals don't use legal weapons, or they wouldn't be criminals. Yes, there are a few that do, but they're the exception, not the rule. A 5% drop in crime is not worth pissing millions off and removing their ability to defend themselves or engage in sport as they please.

yet gun violence is still remaining roughly the same as a decade ago, without decreasing.


Funny, gun laws a decade ago were stricter. Assault weapons bans, the Brady Bill, and whatnot. Crime stays the same, and isn't influenced by newer, crazier guns. It's influenced by newer, crazier ways to make money.

This is worrisome, and is a problem.


Crime is always a problem. Banning or restricting guns isn't the solution.
partydevil
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partydevil
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this guy and what he is saying here really sickens me.
what happened in the lives of those people to get those ideas? ugh..

Jacen96
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Jacen96
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You don't need a fully automatic to spray. And you can buy automatic weapons that were manufactured before 1986.
Wikipedia's disabiguation page for spray says, "An attack with a fully automatic weapon".

And, I thought that all automatics were illegal.

~~~Darth Caedus
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