ForumsWEPRGun control in the US

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theEPICgameKING
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theEPICgameKING
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Discuss. General Tavern rules apply. (No mudslinging, be respectful, etc.)
I'll open with the statement that people should not have guns. No one at all, except the armed forces, and even then, keep the guns on the bases. Cops should carry riot shields and armor instead of guns. If they need crowd control, use Water Cannons.
Supporting evidence: the following skit:
What's your reason?
Setting: A gun shop, modern day.
A Customer walks into the gun shop and asks the Shopkeeper, "Hi, i'd like to buy a gun please."
The Shopkeeper pulls out an application form and asks the customer "Alright, what's your reason for wanting to buy a gun?"
The Customer says "I need one for personal protection."
The Shopkeeper nods. "I have just the thing for you, I guarantee you cannot get any more personal protection than this baby right here. What i'm about to show you offers so much protection, it can stop a shotgun shell."
The customer, very interested, stares at a full-size Riot Shield, the kind the police use. He scoffs. "That's not what I want, I want a gun!"
The Shopkeeper shrugs. "Are you sure? This fine piece of equipment will protect you more than a gun ever will! It's very strong, reinforced titanium and kevlar..." by now, the angry Customer has left.
Later, another Customer enters. "Hi, I need a gun."
Again, the Shopkeeper clicks his pen and pulls out an application form. "For what reason?" he asks.
The Customer hesitates, than says "Hunting."
The shopkeeper smiles. "Of course! I love to hunt. Hunting is a wonderful sport. I guarantee that this item will give you the maximum amount of satisfaction you can ever get from hunting! Here, this is the sport at its peak." And he pulls out a Crossbow, complete with crosshairs for better accuracy.
The customer shakes his head. "No, I want a gun." he states.
The shopkeeper reluctantly puts away the Crossbow. "Are you sure? With a gun, it's so...boring, just pulling a trigger. And it's unfair to the animal, with this you give the deer a chance and have to chase it for up to an hour, just like the Native Americans did back in the day! Unless of course..." He fails to finish his sentence, as the pissed off customer has left in a huff.
Later, a third customer walks in. "Hi, I'd like to buy a gun." he says.
The shopkeeper holds his pen at the ready. "For what reason, sir?" he asks.
The customer glares. "I dont need a reason, read the god **** second amendment "THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS." It's in the constitution you idiot!
The shopkeeper merely smiles. "Of course, I have the perfect thing for you. This gun is covered under Second Amendment laws, guaranteed!" And he holds up a 200-year-old, civil-war-era musket, complete with rusty bayonet.
The customer shrieks. "No, man! I want a Glock, a shotgun, something better than that civil war crap!"
The shopkeeper merely smiles. "I'm sorry sir, please come back when they update the second amendment to include those types of guns. Here, i'll even give you a discount..." the shopkeeper holds out a discount to the enraged customer, who tears it in half and leaves.
Fourthly, another Customer walks in. "I really need a gun, now." He says.
The Shopkeeper holds his pen and application form ready. "For what reason, sir?" he asks.
Instead of stating his reason this time, the Customer snatches the application form and looks at it. There, in the spot titled "Reasons" is a circle for "other".
"Other! That's my reason!" the Customer declares triumphantly.
The shopkeeper shrugs. "Very good answer sir." he says, while pressing a button under the counter. Two cops arrive at the shop in less than a minute and cuff the Customer.
"Hey! What the *PROFANITY* ARE YOU *PROFANITY* GUYS DOING? I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG!" He yells, almost breaking the glass of the windows.
"Actually, you have." The Shopkeeper begins. "the "other" reason, by exclusion of the other reason, can only include wanting to kill or rob someone. Therefore, you were thinking about commiting a crime when you selected "Other" as your reason. Caught you red-handed, trying to buy the tools necessary to commiting a crime. You confessed to it when you selected "Other"! Take him downtown, please." The cops nod and take the Customer away. The last thing he hears from the Shopkeeper is "Oh, and I knew it was you all those times!"

Moral of the story: You do NOT need a gun for a particular activity. In any given activity (And I challenge you to give me a valid, legal activity for which you would need to personally own a gun), there are many other options. Why buy a gun for personal protection when a Riot Shield blocks shotgun shells? Why buy a gun for hunting when the point of hunting (and every other sport) is satisfaction, and since you get more satisfaction with more challenge, and since a crossbow offers more challenge than a gun, you'll get more satisfaction with the crossbow. Why buy a gun based on the Second Amendment when the Colonial-age guns were either giant cannons or black-powder, muzzle-loading Muskets? Did the Founding Fathers have AR-15's, and SPAZ-12 shotguns,And AK 47s, not to mention all the accessories like laser scopes and hollow-point bullets? I dont think so!

The only way you can disprove my argument is to give me a valid, LEGAL activity which requires you to personally own a gun. This excludes Skeet-shooting, because the facility can and should/will provide the gun. Until anyone can do that, YOU DONT NEED A GUN, NO ONE NEEDS GUNS! They're WAY too dangerous and make it too easy to kill someone! Why have something you dont need?

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nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Mexico has fairly strict gun laws (160-163). Civilians can't legally own most firearms. This does nothing to stop cartels or other people who purchase illegal firearms (indeed there is a thriving market for unlicensed arms) but stops law abiding citizens from getting firearms that would be able to reasonably stop an assailant.


Research has shown a significant portion of their guns come from US border states, some of which have very lax gun rules.
theEPICgameKING
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theEPICgameKING
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@Darth_Caedus:

This fine piece of equipment will protect you more than a gun ever will! It's very strong, reinforced titanium and kevlar..."

Against guns yes, but what about knifes, and other melee weapons?


How about you consider the force behind a bullet, and the force behind a gun, before asking me that. A knife carries waaaaay less force than a gun, so does a baseball bat and other melee weapons. What, do you have a +4 Thor's Sledgehammer enchanted with Critical++? This isn't Dungeons and Dragons!

Here, this is the sport at its peak." And he pulls out a Crossbow, complete with crosshairs for better accuracy.

Crossbows, deadly as a gun, and easier to get a hold of. Also, crossbow has a shorter range, and some people might want to shoot from a distance.


Why do crossbows and other archery weapons have shorter ranges? Because they're weaker, and the parabola (that's the fancy upside-down-U-shaped quadratic equation) is much weaker as well. And crossbow's aren't exactly inconspicuous-I'd notice if you carried a crossbow. Go home, shoot a crossbow at a tin can, then shoot another tin can with a bullet. Compare the damage.

"THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS." It's in the constitution you idiot!
The shopkeeper merely smiles. "Of course, I have the perfect thing for you. This gun is covered under Second Amendment laws, guaranteed!" And he holds up a 200-year-old, civil-war-era musket, complete with rusty bayonet.

200 years, know your history, the united states itself is only 236 years old, the civil war was in the 1860's, not the 1810's.
I guess you dont know the defintion of a "Rough Estimate"? So i'm off a little bit, besides the numbers i'm accurate.
Also, I fail to see how the second amendment is limited to non-functional antiques. (although my family owns several that are quite functional, a civil war enfield rifle replica, purchased for use in reenactments)


Ask yourself this question: What did the Forefathers think of as guns when they penciled in that ammendment? They thought off a muzzle-loading black-powder musket. You mentioned your family owns a reenactment musket, so you should know how crap those muskets are. Compare 3 bullets a minute (If you're good), to 100 bullets a minute for, I dont know, an AK-47? AK's and their ilk are so overpowered (Comparison-wise), they shouldn't get a free ride on an amendment meant for muskets.

Other! That's my reason!" the Customer declares triumphantly.
The shopkeeper shrugs. "Very good answer sir." he says, while pressing a button under the counter. Two cops arrive at the shop in less than a minute and cuff the Customer.
"Hey! What the *PROFANITY* ARE YOU *PROFANITY* GUYS DOING? I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG!" He yells, almost breaking the glass of the windows.
"Actually, you have." The Shopkeeper begins. "the "other" reason, by exclusion of the other reason, can only include wanting to kill or rob someone. Therefore, you were thinking about commiting a crime when you selected "Other" as your reason. Caught you red-handed, trying to buy the tools necessary to commiting a crime. You confessed to it when you selected "Other"! Take him downtown, please." The cops nod and take the Customer away. The last thing he hears from the Shopkeeper is "Oh, and I knew it was you all those times!"

Arresting someone for doing nothing is against the law, as he had committed no crimes.


Tell that to the Indefinite Detention Act, where the government can lock you up WITHOUT reason. Then again, conspiracy to commit a crime is more than enough reason for the average cop, why do you think "Attempted *Insert Crime Here*, is still punishable by something?

My response to you, Darth Caedus; back up your information. You've got the force, now just apply the technique of logic and supporting information to follow-through and actually cause some damage with that.
404011xz
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404011xz
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Hey guys, you realize more people die every year from car crashes than from shootings? Same with alcohol. Do you see them banning cars? Oh, and did you know, that mall shooting about a week ago why that man really comited suicide? His AR-15 had jammed, and as he was trying to unjam it somebody with a legal consceal carry gun pulled it out and told him to put his hands up. The shooters responce was go behind the counter, put his pistol to his head, then shoot himself? Why aren't they reporting that on the news? Because it doesn't help their anti-gun parade. You may not believe me but that doesn't matter, consider this. He had a full magazine on the floor and a pistol on him, why else would he shoot himself before unloading almost all his ammo?

partydevil
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partydevil
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Hey guys, you realize more people die every year from car crashes than from shootings and alcohol?

irrelevant
.
Do you see them banning cars?

a car is not mend or designed to kill.

His AR-15 had jammed,....

no need to state the same thing in 2 topics. just pick one.
404011xz
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404011xz
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I was using that to show a goodside to conceal carry. Also how is that irrelevant? Cars and Alcahol aren't meant to kill people but yet they cause more death's than shootings? I'm not talking about war shootings, I'm talking about the robbery shootings and regular street muggings, stuff like that. Oh and you managed to mess up my quote, it was from shootings? Same with alcohol, don't quote unless it's accurate please.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Hey guys, you realize more people die every year from car crashes than from shootings? Same with alcohol. Do you see them banning cars? Oh, and did you know, that mall shooting about a week ago why that man really comited suicide?


Because a gun is also manufactured to kill, hurt, incapacitate. People explicitly use guns for that purpose, aside from other reasons. If you don't use it that way, you're doing it wrong.

No one manufactures cars just so that we can take them and go on a rampage.

Cars and Alcahol aren't meant to kill people but yet they cause more death's than shootings?


And yet cars bring much more benefits than guns. It has already been shown that for every life supposedly saved by a gun, many more are taken and harmed.
404011xz
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404011xz
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What about the settlers in the old days? They used it to survive from day to day by their main source of defence and food. How would they have faired against the wildlife in North America? They surely wouldn't of been able to control all that land as easily and explore it all. You know how guns have influenced our society helpfully? If you were in the old west would you want to be on your farm with nothing to protect you but a simple bow, arrow, or sword? I'm pretty sure exploring the wilderness that Grizzly Bear would of killed alot more explorers. And Nic, have you actually owned a gun before? It helps if you've actually owned, handled, and used it before to try and talk about it. Otherwise you don't really know anything about the item you are talking about. There are tons of forumms here I would like to post in but I don't know much about those things so I know I shouldn't post there.

partydevil
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partydevil
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Also how is that irrelevant?

Cars and Alcahol aren't meant to kill people

i think you answered yourself there.

anyway, cars have as purpose to transport
alcohol, should be in my principle opinion illegal. (note the principle)

Oh and you managed to mess up my quote

yea i know. saw that when i pressed submit.
(add a edit button AG!! it isn't that hard.)
Kasic
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Kasic
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What about the settlers in the old days?

If you were in the old west would you want to be on your farm with nothing to protect you but a simple bow, arrow, or sword? I'm pretty sure exploring the wilderness that Grizzly Bear would of killed alot more explorers.


And there goes your argument. We live in something called "the present."

Otherwise you don't really know anything about the item you are talking about.


You don't need to have used or owned a gun to know what they can do and to see the statistics on them.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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hey used it to survive from day to day by their main source of defence and food. How would they have faired against the wildlife in North America? They surely wouldn't of been able to control all that land as easily and explore it all. You know how guns have influenced our society helpfully?


Do you now need to go out to the wild to hunt for game? Do you need a shotgun to go to the local Walmart? Yes they have helped, but they aren't used in such a fashion by the vast majority of people anymore.

If you were in the old west would you want to be on your farm with nothing to protect you but a simple bow, arrow, or sword? I'm pretty sure exploring the wilderness that Grizzly Bear would of killed alot more explorers.


Is this the Old West now? Nope. As we have already made quite clear, we don't support the banning of guns, but for good reasons. Self defense in the wild from game is a legitimate reason that most countries accept.

And Nic, have you actually owned a gun before? It helps if you've actually owned, handled, and used it before to try and talk about it. Otherwise you don't really know anything about the item you are talking about. There are tons of forumms here I would like to post in but I don't know much about those things so I know I shouldn't post there.


Yeah I have. Military grade. I told you I'm an army conscript didn't I? We get to handle them sometimes before going in. But that's beside the point. Knowing the ins and outs of a dozen guns grants me the mechanical knowledge, but it leaves me bereft of knowledge of gun politics unless I read, which I do.


Bah humbag you alcohol Prohibitionist Party.
partydevil
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partydevil
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What about the settlers in the old days?

do you live in the year 2012 or the year 1712?
plz. update yourself to the age we actually live in.

If you were in the old west

you live in the old west?
i hope for you you dont. but still be aware of billy the kid there is a bounty on his head.

have you actually owned a gun before? It helps if you've actually owned, handled, and used it before to try and talk about it.

wasn't mend to me but still... yes ive been in the military and i had to shoot at some people.

Bah humbag you alcohol Prohibitionist Party.

hehe, well it's just a principle point.
i have no problem if people use it.
they got their alcohol. i got my marijuana. it's funny to watch drunk people so hail alcohol. =P but deep inside i think it should be illegal. but where is the fun then? =/
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Let's just both go back to our high stupors then.

404011xz
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404011xz
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I'm related to billy the kid... or one of those old western bandits, I'm pretty sure my dad said BIlly the Kid. If they make alcohol illegal and not weed then something is wrong. and Party. I was stating how guns were good, without them North America would of probably not be settled around the time it did. If you think I actually believed I lived back then then that weed has really affected your brain cells.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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I'm related to billy the kid... or one of those old western bandits, I'm pretty sure my dad said BIlly the Kid.


My question is, so? Doesn't change the fact that this isn't the OWW anymore.

I was stating how guns were good, without them North America would of probably not be settled around the time it did.


No one denied that. But what we have stated is, this is no longer the case. Premise false, conclusion follows.
404011xz
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404011xz
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I'm just saying. he mentioned him so I decided to say how I'm related. Or would you like to take my freedom of speach away as well?
Guns are still very necesary in the more untamed sections of the US. Look at alaska, Where people can live miles away from towns and where nobody but that gun can stop that charging Bear. What is your other option? Shoot him with a crossbow? maybe that will wound him and slow him down but even with that huge sword that bear is gun tear you apart stilll. Only difference is both of you die this way.

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