Forums → WEPR → Is it OK to teach evolution in public schools?
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Many parents argue about schools teaching evolution. Creationalists do not support or believe in the theory of evolution. It goes against their beliefs. They do not believe it should be taught because it apposes many peoples' beliefs. Do you think that it should be taught?
Notes:
Lets try not point out certain religions. I am saying creationalists for a reason.
- 364 Replies
Here's a small sample of what would go into a class that would be forced to teach unfounded creation myths along side science.
Science can provide no natural explanation for the creation of anything from nothing. That was called "spontaneous generation," and it was disproved in 1859 by Louis Pasteur.
Actually quantum mechanics allows for the universe to come from nothing. I'm not a physicist and don't know much beyond that, but it was part of the basis for the book Stephen Hawking wrote that caused so much controversy in the religious world a few years ago.
"Science" is defined as "systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation." Science is based on creating theories after observing and experimenting. No one has ever seen the creation of the universe and it has never been recorded, documented or recreated in an experiment. If it cannot be observed and proved, it is NOT SCIENTIFIC.
Do you have to witness a fire to realize that the charred house burnt down? We may not have "witnessed" the start of the universe, but that doesn't mean we can't see what is around us and see how it got there. There are many such evidences we have which all point to the Big Bang (which is not evolution).
Science can provide no natural explanation for the creation of anything from nothing. That was called "spontaneous generation," and it was disproved in 1859 by Louis Pasteur.
Spontaneous generation never had anything to do with the creation of the universe, only life. It is bunk anyways.
This alone negates the possibility of organic life coming from inorganic material.
That's like saying that because bees don't spontaneous combust bees don't exist. One wrong explanation of the how does not affect the what.
On top of that, why is the theory called "The Big Bang?" Sound does not travel in the vacuum of space. It would have been a silent explosion of (literally) unmeasurable proportions that happened in a way that cannot be recreated.
I don't know who named it, but it doesn't have anything to do with sound and it was more of an expansion, not an explosion.
With all its advances, science has not found a way to explain how the universe was created and how life came to be, outside of "random chance," which is NOT scientific.
It has, you just don't accept it. And even if science is wrong (which at this point, there is no evidence saying otherwise) it will correct itself when found to be wrong. Also, even if science is wrong, that doesn't make creationism right.
All in all, you talked about the Big Bang much more than evolution, which is the topic. So let's get back to evolution and leave irrelevant matters out, shall we?
At the title of the thread:
Teach evolution in public schools?
Short story: Yes.
Long story: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees.
Teaching evolution is awesome. It's the converse that's worrisome. If you want your kid to learn whatever claptrap your church wants them to, homeschool them or pay for it. Public education should always be secular.
Well, now that we've got that cleared up, I feel like nitpicking. Well, not nitpicking. More like calling out the general idiocy I see here.
Everything MattEmAngel said.
It's funny, really. Actually, it's pretty hilarious. You aren't even trying to defend your own views; you're instead trying to knock science down to the same level as your own views by claiming they're basically the same thing. This would ordinarily come off as smug, silly, and objectionable, if not for that it might as well say that you value your views negatively if you think putting science with them is an adequate dig.
Almost every "oint" you made is laughable if you know the first thing about any of the subjects you rambled off.
First of all, dictionary editors are NOT the supreme arbiters of word usage; they merely catalogue what words mean. Language is a fluid construct.
Secondly, learn to logic. This is reminding me of that time my professor made me prove .9 continuous = 1 using tools we hadn't even covered in class when he learned I was a math major for the short amount of time I was to spend in university before I left, just to see what I already knew. And THEN asked me to illustrate a proof of Löb's Theorem, which I had to pull out of my arse because I'd never heard of it before. But I was able to within the frantic time-frame I had (thankfully, it was a week) because I understood basic logic. This may seem entirely unrelated, and it almost is, if not for how you can find an answer to the question, convoluted as it is. It was a horrible waste of class time.
The important part is this.
P can prove that a proof of X implies X if and only if P can prove X. Basically, if we can find a proof within P that P proves X, it's correct.
Science has a hell of a track record and it's always getting better. More complete. It's continuously satisfied the ancillary conditions, and the theory currently being fielded are constructed of the totum of scientific knowledge we have. That's not to say that they're perfect, though. After all, one of the beautiful things about science is that it doesn't stop improving on itself and readily tosses out explanations that are no longer satisfactory (which is a hell of a lot more than religion can say.)
Anyway. Just because empirical evidence is the foundation of science (take that, Greek philosophers!), that doesn't mean it's entirely necessary. To put it simply
A implies B.
A
Then probably B.
Could it be something other than B? Of course. Is it? Depends. Say B had a probability of .49, the other results being .51 in total. It's the most likely candidate, though the converse is more likely, because .51 > .49. It's still the most trustworthy color to put your money on, though, if you only had a choice of one.
The Universe isn't losing energy. It's losing useful free energy. You can't do much with an ever-expanding puddle of warmth, after all. Well, other than run a very inefficient Stirling engine. Or something.
Oh, and it's called the Big Bang because the term was originally made up by proponents of the Steady State hypothesis as a mockery. But nobody knew that, and it stuck. It's like how people thing Erwin Schrödinger was being serious when he came up with the Schrödinger's Cat thought experiment, and not depicting a problem with the Copenhagen Interpretation.
And the lady doth protest too much, methinks. Protesting your own side. In the original meaning of the word. Although the current one makes perfect sense too, by direct corollary. In a binary choice system, given between A and B, if not A, then B.
Science is still growing. For all its advances it can't explain whatever meaningless gobbledegook you want it to at the moment. So what? That doesn't mean it'll never be able to. I frankly don't see how that's unscientific at all. It's more against the general scientific modus of thought to think what you're thinking, which is a textbook example of what bars progress.
I'd be worried if it weren't "allowed" to teach evolution in public schools.
Because, popular to dogmatic belief, evolution is long-proven, and it's been fact for quite a while now.
With all its advances, science has not found a way to explain how the universe was created and how life came to be, outside of "random chance," which is NOT scientific.
Have you ever heard of the concept called as "a theory"? Scientists never said that they have a definite answer as to how the universe started, and most likely never will, but they use their current knowledge of the universe to be able to understand a bit better how it may have happened.
Have you ever heard of the concept called as "a theory"? Scientists never said that they have a definite answer as to how the universe started, and most likely never will, but they use their current knowledge of the universe to be able to understand a bit better how it may have happened.
Yes to the second sentence, but please don't toss around the phrase "a theory" like people who don't know what it means do. A theory in science is the closest to proof you can get short of mathematical fact.
A theory in science is the closest to proof you can get short of mathematical fact.
That is far from the truth. I have a theory that 9 in 10 Americans are heavily obese, sleep with their weapons tight against their body and strongly support Romney. Now, this is a theory, and as we all know is far from truth. It applies the same in science.
Have you ever heard of the concept called as "a theory"? Scientists never said that they have a definite answer as to how the universe started, and most likely never will, but they use their current knowledge of the universe to be able to understand a bit better how it may have happened.
Gravity is a theory, as is plate tectonics. Does that make them any less viable? Each one of those theories have mountains of information supporting them, yet they are still theories.
Heck, even the idea that all living things are made up of cells (and related functions) is a theory. And I believe that's kinda of a well-known truth along with gravity and plate tectonics in the world.
That is far from the truth. I have a theory that 9 in 10 Americans are heavily obese, sleep with their weapons tight against their body and strongly support Romney. Now, this is a theory, and as we all know is far from truth. It applies the same in science.
Sorry for double post buuut:
That's not science. You're not following the scientific method. You have not spent countless hours and dollars researching those statements. Innumerable other scientists (in the same way as you have come to that 'theory' have not come to the same results.
Scientific theories and normal theories are not even slightly related. I am mortified someone in this day and age fails to understand this.
That is far from the truth. I have a theory that 9 in 10 Americans are heavily obese, sleep with their weapons tight against their body and strongly support Romney. Now, this is a theory, and as we all know is far from truth. It applies the same in science.
Hahahahaha, no. Learn to read so you aren't assuming the wrong thing. Learn to do research so your claims aren't baseless. Learn to doubt yourself.
Scientific theories and normal theories are not even slightly related. I am mortified someone in this day and age fails to understand this.
Thanks on that, Voidy.
This is why Dawkins proposed the word "Theorem" to take up the meaning usually attributed to scientific theory. Honestly, I've just taken to using hypothesis to describe non-scientific ones.
/offtopic, I guess.
Void and pHacon remind me of college. Every person there calling me a moron. Guess there's a strange correlation there.
Theories being whatever theories are or are not, what I wanted to say in my original post is that we cannot know 100% surely whether we are right or wrong (in most/some cases, before you guys decide to pick on my words again), but at least we attempt to understand the things we talk about, unlike religion (or Creationism in this case) which just says "It just happened".
inb4 you guys find something else wrong with my post
Scientific theories and normal theories are not even slightly related.
i science we talk about theories and hypothesis right?
where a scientific theory has evidence for iets claims. a hypothesis has not and is a "normal theory"
Objection rejected, MattEmAngel.
As mentioned by Kasic already, you can say a house probably burned down if you only see the charred remains. And it seems inconsiderate to me to assume that the Big Bang (not an explosion by the way), being the start of our current universe and thus the most crucial event, left no trace at all.
Also spontaneous generation has nothing to do with abiogenesis. Organic life from inorganic material is not "Something from Nothing" but (and it seems quite obvious to me) "Something from Something". And here again, there are enough traces left (pretty much all of life, plus geological evidence for the conditions at the time) to make plausible models for how it occured.
As such science, and by that including evolution too (leading back on topic) is often sort of detective work, looking at facts and traces, and reconstructng the events. It is not just wild random guesses, it's founded opinions and theories. As such it should definitely be told at school, and definitely differently than any religion.
"Science" is defined as "systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation." Science is based on creating theories after observing and experimenting. No one has ever seen the creation of the universe and it has never been recorded, documented or recreated in an experiment. If it cannot be observed and proved, it is NOT SCIENTIFIC.
Yes it is based on observation and experimentation. And the Big Bang as a theory does indeed fit with our observations and experimentation of the universe. As such IT'S SCIENCE.
Evidence for the Big Bang
There was no source of heat or density because nothing existed.
No that's not what I states, it's believe to have started from a singularity. A nearly infinite hot, dense state.
On top of that, why is the theory called "The Big Bang?" Sound does not travel in the vacuum of space.
The name was coined by Fred Hoyle trying to mock and discredit the theory. Fred was a proponent of the Stead State model of the universe. The name "Big Bang" stuck.
That is far from the truth. I have a theory that 9 in 10 Americans are heavily obese, sleep with their weapons tight against their body and strongly support Romney. Now, this is a theory, and as we all know is far from truth. It applies the same in science.
No one person can make a theory. What you would have here is a hypothesis.
Hypothesis; A prediction based on an observation. This proposes a rational explanation for the observed phenomenon, but has not yet been verified.
Theory; A scientific explanation of related observations or events based on hypotheses and verified multiple times by different independent researchers.
Well that's like a school telling you that you must be "Liberal" or "Conservative". It is basically going against the freedom of religion. (Note: LIberal and Conservative aren't religions, I'm just giving an example) I mean the parents don't want their kids to believe something that the kid doesn't believe.
Except it isn't like that at all, because evolution isn't something you "believe" in. It's not a viewpoint or a controversy. It's science, plain and simple, and everyone who's on the "other side" of it would do well to come to their senses and stop being wrong.
It's not going against the freedom of religion because you don't have the right to your own facts or your own science.
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