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An Agnostic's Dilemma.

Posted Jan 19, '13 at 4:30pm

Roger721

Roger721

609 posts

Whoops, ninja'd.

Sorry for the double post now.

Hello, EmperorPalpatine. :)

Explain that to her. In terms she'll understand. Such as, "If I did this without being truly committed, it's like lying about it. If I do it, it should only be if I'm full of faith and really want to follow Christ."

That's an interesting point. If she does believe, I don't think she'd like to force me to lie to her God.

I was at that point for quite a while.

World's complexity and things that I don't understand so far are what keep me there. Perhaps I actually pick a side when I grow up and get to see world differently.

Talk about it with her befor she will decide about it it by herself.

I'm afraid she's -this- close of doing so D:

 

Posted Jan 19, '13 at 4:59pm

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

4,137 posts

If you allow the baptism, you're allowing yourself to be trapped, essentially. "Why allow this but not that?" "You loved the Lord enough to do X. Why not Y and Z, too?"

World's complexity and things that I don't understand so far are what keep me there.

It boils down to "Do you presently hold belief in the existance of a god?" I realized that I didn't. You don't need to denounce anything (like "There is no god"), but if you're not currently saying, "Yes, there is a god," then you're an agnostic atheist.

 

Posted Jan 19, '13 at 5:39pm

Roger721

Roger721

609 posts

If you allow the baptism, you're allowing yourself to be trapped, essentially. "Why allow this but not that?" "You loved the Lord enough to do X. Why not Y and Z, too?"

Hell, that actually makes sense! I think this is going deeper than I thought...

It boils down to "Do you presently hold belief in the existance of a god?" I realized that I didn't. You don't need to denounce anything (like "There is no god"), but if you're not currently saying, "Yes, there is a god," then you're an agnostic atheist.

Er... -boop- I guess that'd be me?

 

Posted Jan 19, '13 at 6:29pm

Getoffmydangle

Getoffmydangle

105 posts

I am agnostic as well.  I came to that based on concluding that we can't know for sure one way or the other, so why would you pretend to have certainty one way or the other.  It is impossible to prove that god does not exist, because you can't disprove a negative, but short of god actually appearing in the world, and it being caught on camera, there's probably no way to prove that he/she/it does exist. 
Your situation with your family sounds tough.  Personally, I would try to not rock the boat, and do as little of the religion stuff as I could get away with, without upsetting my parents.  But my parents stopped making me go to church when I was 13 (approximately), and so I stopped going, except on special occasions to make my mom happy.  You can still grow into your own person, but its probably best to be respectful of other people's beliefs.

 

Posted Jan 19, '13 at 7:28pm

handlerfan

handlerfan

186 posts

I think that you could get 'baptised' to please your mother, if it's a rite of passage like a Barmitzvah at the same time as asserting your right to be 'agnostic'. Let's call it being nice to your mom.

 

Posted Jan 20, '13 at 12:57am

pangtongshu

pangtongshu

4,480 posts

Agnostic is a term all of its own. Basically it means, "I don't know" but that's not quite right.

You're right...that was my mistake. I was thinking solely about the subdivisions that I forgot about the overlaying main idea of Agnosticism

My mom is looking forward to get me and my brother "baptized" in that religion. And that would make me obligated to go to church some times - even though I don't like to go there.

I fail to see how being baptized would make you obligated to have to go to church. I was baptized and I don't go to church and retain my stance as Agnostic Theistic

but she also says she'll not force me into getting baptized and is using many arguments to convince me otherwise.

Point out to her how she gave you a choice..and that trying to convince you do to do might only push you away as you would feel the obligation instead of the faith

but if you're not currently saying, "Yes, there is a god," then you're an agnostic atheist.

Hey now...saying "There might be a God" doesn't make you agnostic atheist =p

I think that you could get 'baptised' to please your mother, if it's a rite of passage like a Barmitzvah at the same time as asserting your right to be 'agnostic'. Let's call it being nice to your mom.

But then you are disrespecting the religion/church..by goin through something so serious for the religion for the sole purpose of pleasing a family member

 

Posted Jan 20, '13 at 1:58am

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

4,137 posts

"Yes, there is a god,"

Should've been "Yes, I believe there is a god." Sorry.

Agnostic Theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.
-wiki

 

Posted Jan 20, '13 at 2:51am

Roger721

Roger721

609 posts

Well... late reply here. Hello all.

Your situation with your family sounds tough.  Personally, I would try to not rock the boat, and do as little of the religion stuff as I could get away with, without upsetting my parents.  But my parents stopped making me go to church when I was 13 (approximately), and so I stopped going, except on special occasions to make my mom happy.  You can still grow into your own person, but its probably best to be respectful of other people's beliefs.

I see... and I do respect her choice. I'm actually pretty happy she's attending that church. She is a depressive kind of person, and the church helps her overcoming some of our difficulties. But... that's not what I agree with. If she thinks there's a God and she should follow Him, fine. Great. Awesome. But if I can't manifest my opinion and be bound to this opinion, that's not right.

I think that you could get 'baptised' to please your mother, if it's a rite of passage like a Barmitzvah at the same time as asserting your right to be 'agnostic'. Let's call it being nice to your mom.

Er... the baptism is some kind of initiation... on the religion. People who follow it get baptized to stand out of the normal church-goer. It assures you believe in God. I'd love if it functioned as a simple ritual, but mandatory church sessions - which actually start tomorrow (dang it) - and other probable times I'll be forced into attending a meeting to listen to stuff I don't believe in keep me unsure about it.

I fail to see how being baptized would make you obligated to have to go to church. I was baptized and I don't go to church and retain my stance as Agnostic Theistic

Well... there are some pre-baptism obligatory sessions. And my mom would be very happy if I attended every session. The church wouldn't actually order me to go, but my mom would.

Point out to her how she gave you a choice... and that trying to convince you do to do might only push you away as you would feel the obligation instead of the faith

I think that in her mind... she gave me no choices. She expects me to get baptized. Period.

But that's a good point. I see no reasons to believe in the church's ideology, but the obligation I'm being shoved into actually make me want to stay away from it.

Hey now...saying "There might be a God" doesn't make you agnostic atheist =P

Er... nope. Nor saying that there might be a superior force. That'd be agnostic theism.

I guess I'm more into going to the side of agnostic atheism. I don't seem to believe in the existence of any kind of God, but as science can't tell me everything, I wonder if there's not a force of sorts - even though is hard proving that it does exist.

But then you are disrespecting the religion/church..by goin through something so serious for the religion for the sole purpose of pleasing a family member

I agree. Believing or not, religious stuff are serious business. People that believe know that's not a joking ground. Perhaps if I tell my mom of my thoughts, she might agree with that.

Lemme tell you a story:

When I was younger, I actually believed in God's existence. I believed that there were many saints and God would rule them all in order to expel evil creatures from people's lives - and me and my family would actually follow a religion of brazilian roots. But my life would go through many breakdowns or harsh times, such as my mom having depressive crisis, my father having heart problems, my family having discussions upon a heritage and I getting despaired upon all of that. I'd find myself praying... for nothing. As my life wouldn't get any better, I started to wonder about all of that. Well, if that existed, why was I suffering in that way? So I decided that I'd stop worrying about praying and focus on get trouble solved for real. I had lost all my faith in God or any of that - and all that held me from accepting the non-existence of an outer force was the lack of some explanations upon the world that surrounds me.

In the meantime, my mom would actually follow a similar line of thinking, but instead of cease to believe, she'd conclude that all of that was the religion's fault, that it was evil, and changed to the Evangelic scenery, only believing in God and Jesus. What influenced her into that was, perhaps, seeing that many people around us had found their peace and success in that religion.
________________________________________

I'm sorry if this is getting a little off-topic. Yet the trouble seems to be getting closer to me - as the mandatory sessions start today. It's time for me to take a decision - and these opinions are helping my mind a lot!

 

Posted Jan 20, '13 at 2:56am

Roger721

Roger721

609 posts

Whoops. Ninja'd and I need to fix something. Sorry 'bout DP.

FIXING:

In the meantime, my mom would actually follow a similar line of thinking, but instead of cease to believe, she'd conclude that all of that was that specific religion's fault, that it was evil, the many saints were evil and the form of worshiping God was wrong, changing to the Evangelic scenery, only believing in God and Jesus. What influenced her into that was, perhaps, seeing that many people around us had found their peace and success in the Evangelic religion.

Agnostic Theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.

Uhhh... I guess that's what I believe in.

 

Posted Jan 20, '13 at 4:03am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,140 posts

On the agnosticism thing. This only speaks of one's knowledge, not of what you believe. Try to be careful not to confuse the two. Also when you're not sure what you believe you can go back and forth between atheist and theist quite often and quite rapidly.

Hey now...saying "There might be a God" doesn't make you agnostic atheist =p

Yes it can. Just because someone says there might be something there says nothing of whether they believe it is there.

Now on to the question. I agree with much of the advice given here. Be open and upfront with here. Tell her that you respect her choices and beliefs. Tell her for that reason you wouldn't want to participate under false pretenses because of this respect you have for her beliefs.

Keep in mind when you're saying "I don't want to do this because I would be lying to God" at some level in her you're saying "I don't want to do this because I would be lying to you." "and I have to much respect for you to do that."

 
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