Forums → WEPR → An Agnostic's Dilemma.
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Hello all of you. Perhaps the first time I'm ever posting in this particular section of the forums. I'm only doing so because I needed some opinions on something.
As the thread's title say, I'm agnostic. I don't follow any religions, but can't disprove their existence - nor prove it. But I'm facing a dilemma of sorts - at least I think it's a dilemma :P
My family follows an Evangelic religion - as I'm not from the U.S, the kind of religion my family follows may differ from your types of religion; my family follows a religion which doesn't worship any figures or saints, only God and Jesus. My mom and my stepfather go to the church some times a week. I'm not being obligated to go there... yet.
My mom is looking forward to get me and my brother "baptized" in that religion. And that would make me obligated to go to church some times - even though I don't like to go there.
She says that she's asking us kindly and we have freedom to choose whether to accept it or not. But you know how moms are; When she asked us, she said we should think about it with all of our hearts, and remembered us about the many things she does when we ask her to - like giving rides or allowing trips and parties. I don't think she expects a no as an answer.
Even though I'm not old enough to have freedom of opinion, I've made my choice on religion; I'm agnostic and probably will not change. But I'd not like to be converted and forced to go to church, nor being taught things I don't agree with.
What should I do? Should I step forward and try to retain my choice or should I allow myself to be baptized and withstand things I'm not fond of simply to avoid family issues?
Thanks in advance for any replies.
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Obs: All I need is some opinions. I'm not looking forward to create a thread to serve as a religious war of sorts. So, stay focused and don't start a flame war here. I'd be much appreciated.
For the mods, I'd like to ask you to keep an eye on this thread. If it becomes against the forum rules, feel free to delete it - but, please, could you notify me on my profile if that happens? Thank you.
- 64 Replies
Depending on how strict she is, she'd likely ban you from "destructive influences" until you're brought back. The I-net is often a scapegoat as a tool spawned of evil.
She'd do that.
Point out that it's not a choice. You simply aren't certain of which god(s) is/are the true one(s), if any. And, if I remember right, didn't she change up her religion earlier? You're doing the same thing, but with a broader scope. Instead of "which denomination?", it's "which religion, if any?"
Yeah.
Oh, and she'll likely try to use Pascal's Wager against you, so be ready with an answer.
Is there a way of effectingly avoid this thing?
Of course, but was it because your parents said "this is God", took you to church, etc? Or because you did research on your own and came to that conclusion all by yourself?
Touché! I... don't remember. By the time I had made my mind as a human being, I was a believer. I had never questioned about God's existence. So... probably the first one.
Agnosticism is an active choice. You made a choice not to believe in whatever god you were supposed to believe in, but to keep an open mind.
I guess that'd be it. I honestly don't know in what side of the religious side I'm in the most. I'd believe in science only if it could explain me more things than it currently seems to.
The argument here would likely go something like this, "Do you want to risk going to Hell if you're wrong?"
The implication is only providing two choices. Either her religion is right and you're risking Hell or her religion is wrong and you have nothing to worry about. But if you follow her religion then you also have nothing to worry about if her religion is right or wrong.
Perhaps it'd go that way;;;
Er... maybe.
This is a false dichotomy which doesn't take into account the possibility of another religion being right and risking the punishment of that religion instead. You also have to face the possibility that even if she has the right religion her denomination of that religion might be wrong and another right. Again with this scenario there is the chance of risking Hell for not worshiping correctly. Further out from this, there is also the possibility that the correct option is one no one has come across yet. This makes the options nearly infinite.
Uh... yeah, indeed.
I think it better to withhold a choice until hard evidence is presented instead of picking one out of countless religions in the hopes that you got it right.
I agree.
Besides the numbers just going along with a religion "just in case" would still be lying in your heart. The question here you can pose is if that God would want false worship?
It's a nice point there.
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Anyways, call me a wuss, but I haven't approached her about the situation yet. What keeps me the most is the fact that she has been quite depressed lately, and has been sleeping her days away. So can't reach her in a steady situation, plus I'm afraid she'd be stressed by the situation.
Anyways, call me a wuss, but I haven't approached her about the situation yet. What keeps me the most is the fact that she has been quite depressed lately, and has been sleeping her days away. So can't reach her in a steady situation, plus I'm afraid she'd be stressed by the situation.
Find a better time to do so then. It's not like pretending to believe for a while more will be much a big deal.
By the time I had made my mind as a human being, I was a believer. I had never questioned about God's existence. So... probably the first one.
This is one of the insidious things about indoctrinating children at such a young age. It gets them before they can even question it or think for themselves.
Anyways, call me a wuss, but I haven't approached her about the situation yet. What keeps me the most is the fact that she has been quite depressed lately, and has been sleeping her days away. So can't reach her in a steady situation, plus I'm afraid she'd be stressed by the situation.
No I don't think this is being a wuss at all. This is likely going to be a touchy subject to deal with and it is a good idea to wait til she is doing good first.
I would suggest using the current time to educate yourself more about the religion. Take note during church, ask questions, go out on the net and do your own research, read the Bible cover to cover for your self.
Reading this makes me remember how fortunate I am that my parents never gave a toss about religion outside of how it affected them personally and left my brother and I to form our own opinions on all of this. I'm not jealous of my position -- it's how everyone should be raised -- but I'm definitely not envious of yours.
My two coppers in, then. No matter what you decide to do, always be considerate of your mum. It may prolong the process, but what matters here is that you both understand what each other is going through and don't muck it up more than you can help.
Personally, I would prefer to be honest with her. But if you tell her that you don't believe, make sure she knows that non-religious people are at least as moral and healthy as religious people, and if she, knowing your beliefs (or lack thereof), still wants you to get baptized so she can personally feel safe, go through with it. Do it for her. You'll almost never see me endorsing any kind of compromise since compromise is generally bollocks and people are always worse-off for it, this is one situation where it's really not that bad.
I'm sorry if this was already pointed out (I did not see it as I skimmed over the last few pages), but when I read the following I could hardly believe it:
But you know how moms are; When she asked us, she said we should think about it with all of our hearts, and remembered us about the many things she does when we ask her to - like giving rides or allowing trips and parties.
There is no way in any shape or form that a mother giving rides to her children or allowing trips/parties leads to her children owing her, for lack of a better word, to become part of a religion. That's sophistry.
To make it even better, not even just go to a few meetings (or whatever you may call it) yet get baptized! I am lacking the proper words to convey how strongly I feel about this (Rather, I lack the words allowed in our Community). It's not a little thing she is asking for.
It's akin to, oh say, receiving help with your office work for a while from a good friend of yours. They tell you not to worry about because they are doing it because they are your friend. Then suddenly they expect all those hours spent to be reimbursed by having you marry their youngest son/daughter.
I'd believe in science only if it could explain me more things than it currently seems to.
what can't science explain to you that you would like to understand (believe)?
i'm prety sure science can give a explenation on everything that exists.
Wouldn't that be too harsh?
hey, theres nothing too harsh to protect who you really are. i think its much harsher when people try to change you or make you one of them.
I'd like to be able to read her mind... I mean, the baptism is a big deal, but I'm not sure how far she would go to get me baptized - i.e.: how extreme it is.
well thats the most important thing. whats the worst she could do? do you think she would go as far as to disown you? think of the most extreme things she can do and see if you can face them. if not then you will just have to fake it. but in that case you will eventually "come out" with it and the relationship will be much more explosive.
Imagine Sheldon and his mum. Get to that stage.
Lol, nicho, you're awesome :P
[quote]You never had a chance to "find God" in the first place.
I actually believed in God before. I'm currently more prone to become an atheist than becoming Christian.[/quote]
Um..I remember I copied this down for something...but I can't remember what my comment was. I assure you it was important! Just pretend like I made an important comment here I suppose.
Anyway, as for the thread in general. Starting with myself, I'm also an agnostic. I have consistently gone back and forth between being atheist and theist on the agnostic spectrum, and I currently reside in a more zen area of "Who gives a crap?" and have found the best peace there. Struggling to form an opinion, find the knowledge, acknowledge existence, and provide faith are all tough acts. In fact, they're not something you should really be worrying about at the age I'm guessing you're at (like 13-15 I'm just surmising from your situation). You should be enjoying social life to it's fullest extent, having fun, and not worrying too much.
Of course, I know that's my silly idealistic optimism shining through, but it's called idealism for a reason. Further on, I was in a relationship with someone when I was 17 who was Catholic. Not too religious, but enough that the argument/debate came up several times. After about 8 months of that argument reoccuring, I knew that was it. I wasn't going to do a permanent conversion; I was only willing to go to church with her and show that I was understanding of faith and commitment. However, she was more adamant than I felt necessary about having me believe in something. I simply stated it was much healthier to not fret over it if I wasn't absolutely positive, and I wasn't
Getting to the point I'm making, it's not healthy for either of you, you or your mom, to be going through this. You because your growth isn't over, physically, which will be diminished by the stress and its physical tolls, or mentally, which will be warped also by stress, but through the mental anguish present. Your mom because of her previously stated condition of depression, as well as, for lack of a better term, heartache at her son going against her structure.
Of course, the effects this situation would have would only be at a serious danger level after a significant amount of time, but trauma is trauma, and it should be stopped as soon as possible.
To get to my advice, I would say this: do what you want. You are your own person, and no one else can make you do anything if you don't want to. (Aside from if your mom can overpower you and literally drags you to the church) Your mom may not like it at first, but eventually, will see that you're maturing. You're starting to make your own decisions, and despite being underaged as you've said, you're becoming a man. She should respect you for that. I say should since I don't know your mom, but mothers should for the most part all feel this way about it. Also tell her that, like Devoidless said earlier, the case of giving rides and such is not comparable to a commitment like getting baptized.
Also, like I have also read throughout this thread, making a commitment when not committed is a horrible farce. If you're not in it completely, you shouldn't be at all. You need time to think about it.
Like I previously stated, you're in a stage where growth is necessary. You need to think for yourself and you need to show your mom that you can.
I also think you should find the time as soon as possible to tell her this. I know you said she's been sleeping a lot, so whenever she's awake, that should be the time. This is hard on her, too, and whether or not she likes your answer, she wants it to end soon as well.
If she questions your newly expressed agnosticism, then give her your reasoning. Maybe even tell why OH MY GOD I remembered why I quoted that chunk earlier.
[quote]You never had a chance to "find God" in the first place.
I actually believed in God before. I'm currently more prone to become an atheist than becoming Christian.[/quote]
Tell her why you changed your mind about religion in the first place. Tell her that your faith dwindled as the prayers you made for your family went unanswered, and that got you to thinking. Explain yourself the best you can, and if she still doesn't understand, then maybe she never will. I know that sounds bad, but it may just be something that never gets worked out, but if you and your mom still love each other, then it will. Maternal love is a powerful thing, not to be reckoned with.
I hope that helps, and good luck with the situation. And again, try not to delay the talk anymore than you can.
I'd believe in science only if it could explain me more things than it currently seems to.
There is also a good chance science does already have the answers and you're just not aware of it.
Also belief really isn't part of science. Science isn't a belief based system. You either accept something based on the evidence presented or not.
Tell her that your faith dwindled as the prayers you made for your family went unanswered
That'll be met with 2 Timothy 3:1-9; that these are the last days: the critical moments to keep faithful and not give up on the promise of the Lord, or something like that.
That'll be met with 2 Timothy 3:1-9; that these are the last days: the critical moments to keep faithful and not give up on the promise of the Lord, or something like that.
Depends if his mom is an avid Bible memorizer, but I suppose you're right. Still, faith isn't something you can force.
Gee. Could a mod delete the last post? Thanks.
Mis-pressed the quote thingy.
This is one of the insidious things about indoctrinating children at such a young age. It gets them before they can even question it or think for themselves.
Exactly.
Find a better time to do so then. It's not like pretending to believe for a while more will be much a big deal.
No I don't think this is being a wuss at all. This is likely going to be a touchy subject to deal with and it is a good idea to wait til she is doing good first.
Yeah it will. And, once she's depressive, she's skipping church herself.
I would suggest using the current time to educate yourself more about the religion. Take note during church, ask quest
ions, go out on the net and do your own research, read the Bible cover to cover for your self.
I don't think it would change my opinions about it, yet a little studying is never too much, right?
Hey pH.
Reading this makes me remember how fortunate I am that my parents never gave a toss about religion outside of how it affected them personally and left my brother and I to form our own opinions on all of this. I'm not jealous of my position -- it's how everyone should be raised -- but I'm definitely not envious of yours.
Lucky guy. It'd be all easier.
No matter what you decide to do, always be considerate of your mum. It may prolong the process, but what matters here is that you both understand what each other is going through and don't muck it up more than you can help.
I see... I can't actually measure what would happen - the magnitude of the results - if every piece of this discussion would go wrong. So... it's risky to charge alone.
Personally, I would prefer to be honest with her. But if you tell her that you don't believe, make sure she knows that non-religious people are at least as moral and healthy as religious people, and if she, knowing your beliefs (or lack thereof), still wants you to get baptized so she can personally feel safe, go through with it. Do it for her. You'll almost never see me endorsing any kind of compromise since compromise is generally bollocks and people are always worse-off for it, this is one situation where it's really not that bad
I dunno... I can't measure the results of that. I guess no one can. She could either use the baptism as a conversion tool or just as a seal of "I was there".
Hello Voidy - er... Devoidless; where have I seen you been called like that?
There is no way in any shape or form that a mother giving rides to her children or allowing trips/parties leads to her children owing her, for lack of a better word, to become part of a religion. That's sophistry.
To make it even better, not even just go to a few meetings (or whatever you may call it) yet get baptized! I am lacking the proper words to convey how strongly I feel about this (Rather, I lack the words allowed in our Community). It's not a little thing she is asking for.
It's akin to, oh say, receiving help with your office work for a while from a good friend of yours. They tell you not to worry about because they are doing it because they are your friend. Then suddenly they expect all those hours spent to be reimbursed by having you marry their youngest son/daughter.
Exactly! I totally agree! I... was actually kind of pissed at her for her pointing out that. She first asked if we would like to get converted, then said "oh, you should get converted due to bad things in the past" and for "godly protection" . And then she aims down to my knees and say "I should do it for her, because she was asking" and that I must think about every stuff she does for me. Er... flunk me, right?
hey, theres nothing too harsh to protect who you really are. i think its much harsher when people try to change you or make you one of them.
Well, stirring up fights with family members is rather harsh. Specially when this family member is your closest one, the one it's strongly related to you and has depressive tendencies.
well thats the most important thing. whats the worst she could do? do you think she would go as far as to disown you? think of the most extreme things she can do and see if you can face them. if not then you will just have to fake it. but in that case you will eventually "come out" with it and the relationship will be much more explosive.
Probably.
Hello Dragonball.
Anyway, as for the thread in general. Starting with myself, I'm also an agnostic. I have consistently gone back and forth between being atheist and theist on the agnostic spectrum, and I currently reside in a more zen area of "Who gives a crap?" and have found the best peace there. Struggling to form an opinion, find the knowledge, acknowledge existence, and provide faith are all tough acts. In fact, they're not something you should really be worrying about at the age I'm guessing you're at (like 13-15 I'm just surmising from your situation). You should be enjoying social life to it's fullest extent, having fun, and not worrying too much.
I like your style. And I think it'd be great to. But as my mom is trying - or at least was - to make religion a big part of her life. And even though I have no practical need to form an opinion, I'm starting to. Well... at least I'm forming small pieces of opinions and I'd like to avoid changing it.
Getting to the point I'm making, it's not healthy for either of you, you or your mom, to be going through this. You because your growth isn't over, physically, which will be diminished by the stress and its physical tolls, or mentally, which will be warped also by stress, but through the mental anguish present. Your mom because of her previously stated condition of depression, as well as, for lack of a better term, heartache at her son going against her structure.
Of course, the effects this situation would have would only be at a serious danger level after a significant amount of time, but trauma is trauma, and it should be stopped as soon as possible.
Oooohhhhh... nice. I agree. But I can't see how to tell her about it. I mean, would she listen to me? Would I manage to shove this under the carpet for a few... years?
To get to my advice, I would say this: do what you want. You are your own person, and no one else can make you do anything if you don't want to. (Aside from if your mom can overpower you and literally drags you to the church) Your mom may not like it at first, but eventually, will see that you're maturing. You're starting to make your own decisions, and despite being underaged as you've said, you're becoming a man. She should respect you for that. I say should since I don't know your mom, but mothers should for the most part all feel this way about it. Also tell her that, like Devoidless said earlier, the case of giving rides and such is not comparable to a commitment like getting baptized.
Well, nice point! I think she could see it that way. But it would be stressing at first. So... risky.
Also, like I have also read throughout this thread, making a commitment when not committed is a horrible farce. If you're not in it completely, you shouldn't be at all. You need time to think about it.
I hear you. If it's that much of big deal of the priests, it would be one big farce.
Like I previously stated, you're in a stage where growth is necessary. You need to think for yourself and you need to show your mom that you can.
I also think you should find the time as soon as possible to tell her this. I know you said she's been sleeping a lot, so whenever she's awake, that should be the time. This is hard on her, too, and whether or not she likes your answer, she wants it to end soon as well.
I hope. But I'm not even sure she remember the existance of this issue. During a depressive crisis, she wastes the world around her for the sake of sleeping. For real. In a moment she was even looking for the phone to call my dad - they are separated - to make me and my brother spend summer break there. Problem is, I hate my stepmother - she's evil - and my father works his *** off, so me and my brother would be sent for a psychological torture camp.
Tell her why you changed your mind about religion in the first place. Tell her that your faith dwindled as the prayers you made for your family went unanswered, and that got you to thinking. Explain yourself the best you can, and if she still doesn't understand, then maybe she never will. I know that sounds bad, but it may just be something that never gets worked out, but if you and your mom still love each other, then it will. Maternal love is a powerful thing, not to be reckoned with.
The truth saves it all, eh?
I hope that helps, and good luck with the situation. And again, try not to delay the talk anymore than you can.
Thanks so far.
~image~
There is also a good chance science does already have the answers and you're just not aware of it.
Also belief really isn't part of science. Science isn't a belief based system. You either accept something based on the evidence presented or not.
Exactly! But, as of now, I haven't got enough research, probably.
That's exactly the reason why this is in my about:
I don't follow religions, but I believe there's something that has been influencing the fate of the world. I don't see how the Earth, in it's complex form, could be explained totally by Science only. The colour, the smell, the feelings... But I dunno... maybe all I need is more research.
That'll be met with 2 Timothy 3:1-9; that these are the last days: the critical moments to keep faithful and not give up on the promise of the Lord, or something like that.
She might come up with this... not mentioning the current stuff, but saying it like that.
Still, faith isn't something you can force.
No way.
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She hasn't slept the day away today. I don't know if that is an improvement or if you could blame on the horrible fire we got there - she went to a gymnasium to observe the cops working.
And, once she's depressive, she's skipping church herself.
Not necessarily. She might go more, seeking help from the Lord.
I don't think it would change my opinions about it, yet a little studying is never too much, right?
If anything, it'll reinforce them. For example, today, I found 2 Samuel 12:15, in which God causes an innocent baby to die. This replaces Judges 11:30-39 as my least favorite God-related death in the bible.
But I can't see how to tell her about it.
Understand yourself. Know as much about your current position as you can, so you can readily explain yourself and your reasoning. Then find a time when she's calm and able to talk/listen. If you can't find a time, make a time. Say "I need to tell you something. It's important." Sit in a comfortable area without distractors (tv, phone, etc). Just do it before it's too late.
I mean, would she listen to me?
Whether she listens or not, she should respect you for your honesty and openness.
Would I manage to shove this under the carpet for a few... years?
It would be more than a few. And then she could find out that it was all a lie. And even if she didn't find out, you'd still be guilty of it.
Well, stirring up fights with family members is rather harsh. Specially when this family member is your closest one, the one it's strongly related to you and has depressive tendencies.
again, you are protecting who you are. if your family cant accept you for who you are then i would say they arent worthy of being your family. might sound cold but if there is one thing i hate its when people who are close to you use that bond to control you. in the end, those who make you choose are those who arent worth being chosen.
Probably.
to what? disowning you? if she is that extreme and cares more about control and religion then her own son then id suggest you play her game and play your act until your physically safe. i know its difficult to have such family problems but if you give up you will eventually face horibble personal pain.
my father expected me to join the army. not only that he expected me to join a fighting unit. i am underweight, he hates that (even though he is underweight too). he is embarassed with my asthma and simply believes his own lie that it does not exist. he convinced himself that im some kind of ****** cop who wants to be a medic or cop instead of joining the army when i told him i wont join. and when i told him i wont be one of those he was shocked.
would you suggest me that i would join the army/be a cop/medic when i hate weapons, and cant stand the sight of blood? you HAVE to be who you are (unless its dangerous) and not give up to anyone who thinks has the right to determine who you are.
Oooohhhhh... nice. I agree. But I can't see how to tell her about it. I mean, would she listen to me? Would I manage to shove this under the carpet for a few... years?
This comes back to my maternal love idea. Despite whether or not she wants to hear it, and she may hide it, too, she will listen. Her heart will make her pay attention, if only a little, to witness your change to understand what is going on. She'll always be your mother, and you'll always be her son, but there are going to be times when the two of you disagree, and you both have to accept it.
Well, nice point! I think she could see it that way. But it would be stressing at first. So... risky.
Well ask yourself this: is your mental independence worth the risk?
I hope. But I'm not even sure she remember the existance of this issue. During a depressive crisis, she wastes the world around her for the sake of sleeping. For real. In a moment she was even looking for the phone to call my dad - they are separated - to make me and my brother spend summer break there. Problem is, I hate my stepmother - she's evil - and my father works his *** off, so me and my brother would be sent for a psychological torture camp.
Well, it might take this situation resurfacing to snap her back into full reality. I would say, just seeing the word depression as my reasoning, be careful with the speed in the conversation of bringing up the subject. Of course, do it all in one go, maybe two, but make sure you don't just go up to her an say "Mom, I'm not getting baptized, deal with it" because that will have more adverse effects than positive outcomes.
The truth saves it all, eh?
That's my thought at least. Very rarely is it good to lie, and even then it's usually just a small lie. In this case, there are multiple reasons not to lie. Your mother needs to see as soon as possible who you are and what you believe. Also, if she finds out later that you've lied about your beliefs, it'll be worse than if she knows now. Another point is that if there is a God, I'm sure God would be much more displease in you lying about belief/disbelief in him than openly thinking "God, I do not believe you exist." So spiritually, since you're agnostic and could easily go to either side of the spectrum, it's better to be open about it. A third point is that for you personally. it's better not to lie so you don't have the constant stress and anguish from worrying about your mother finding out about the lie.
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