ForumsWEPRnot believing means send to hell?

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xAyjAy
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xAyjAy
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let us say there could be places like heaven and hell...

..what would happen with people who can not believe after they die? what happens with people who never had the chance to believe anything after they died? what happens with people who forgot that there is a god (altzheimers) or people who are mentally handicapped or people in a coma when they die?

my point is that believe can not be the only "thing" that decides wether they get into heaven or hell (if these places even exist).

just a thought i had today.

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OperationNilo
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OperationNilo
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So we can be horrible people, have no belief in God, disobey God all we like and still go to heaven when we die just by choosing to?


Not really. The choices you take must be carried out during life.

Oh how horrible I'm being forced to spend eternity not being tortured, how dare this God force that on us when he could give us the choice to be BBQ'd. But that is exactly what God does


See it as you may, it's true.

But that is exactly what God does, just adds in a later punishment improportionate to the crime.


Not really. You think he does nothing, in reality, he is allowing our decisions to go on. And there is no punishment large enough for sin.

If God made us perfect there is no way we could have messed up.


Yet somehow, we did. I don't get it either, but I have faith in it.

And if you fail, you suffer forever. The problem is God would've known their choice before administering the 'test'.


I repeat, it was a metaphor. I like to use them a lot, don't I?
Truth is, it should be easy for everyone to get the test right. It's just plain ethics. Do good, avoid evil.
Kasic
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Kasic
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I never said you were, I just said that we're not in the same plane when it comes to love.


What do you define love as? Let's start there.

You think he is a tyrant because you don't care about who he is or what he does, you only want the worse of him. And not believing in him doesn't necessarily send you to hell.


I claim he is a tyrant in regards to how he is presented in the Bible. If a god really exists, it may not be that god. Or the Bible could be wrongly portraying the real god. As for not believing in him resulting in hell, more people think that than the reverse.

The difference is that you didn't make the child, you are merely the instrument with which the child was made.


It's irrelevant. Why is God not held to the same morals as we are?

I consider him as greater, he considers us his children.


The Bible presents humanity as God's children, which he claims to love, yet views with contempt. He punishes us and sets us up to fail. He is an abusive parent.

Maybe because you didn't give him the chance? And if you're reading the bible like I think you are, you must be wrong.


I was raised as a Christian. My grandmother and aunt are both pastors. My entire family is Christian. I gave God a chance.

How am I reading the Bible wrongly? The words are there for anyone to see.

but sin is not.


An all loving figure could forgive us for our mistakes. He wouldn't torture us forever.

Huh. Please read up on christianism and come back later.


You have directly said multiple times on how God is superior to us and how we're lesser and he can do whatever he wants with us. Sounds like slavery to me.

Actually, he created us to share his love and not keep it to himself.


I'm not seeing the love anywhere.

Who turned his back on God.


And why did he do that?

The thing is that God is perfect. Not in our way of understanding it, however.


See, it's this claim of perfection that's getting to me. Why can God do horrible things like eternally punishing people and call it just, but our simple act of not believing he's actually there because we have no evidence warrants punishment?

And there is no punishment large enough for sin.


Why is that? God must have created it, since he created everything. Even if it was created as an absence of good. He made sin apart of the system. For what reason would he do that?

I don't get it either, but I have faith in it.


Okay, honestly, I don't even know how to say this without insulting you, so sorry in advance. It's stupid to believe something so wholeheartedly when you don't even understand what it's saying.

Truth is, it should be easy for everyone to get the test right. It's just plain ethics. Do good, avoid evil.


Except that what God appears to consider evil is arbitrary. Everything he does is good, check. Humanity is lesser and inherently sinners. Check. Where do we get the chance to avoid evil again?
pangtongshu
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pangtongshu
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Truth is, it should be easy for everyone to get the test right. It's just plain ethics. Do good, avoid evil.


Truth is..this "test" isn't fair either. There are many "guidelines" to follow that are downright ridiculous

1 Corinthians 10:10
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

Hebrews 10:28-29
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God
(so, basically..obey old testament)

I have more...but have to get off the computer

Recommended reading
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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And if you're reading the bible like I think you are, you must be wrong.

JWs, Catholics, Mormons, etc say the same thing to each other all the time. If the scriptures were perfect, there would be no interpretation issues.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Not really. The choices you take must be carried out during life.


So if w use our free will and don't do what God wants we end up in hell?

See it as you may, it's true.


Determined by what exactly?

Not really. You think he does nothing, in reality, he is allowing our decisions to go on. And there is no punishment large enough for sin.


Everything regarded as sin are finite actions. If sin is deserving of an eternal punishment that would mean God can't let anything go. Even if this God couldn't it would be pretty ridiculous not to.

Yet somehow, we did. I don't get it either, but I have faith in it.


And there in is the faulty logic. You don't get it because it makes no friggin sense. You're believing something that is ridiculous and just blindly going with it. Use that brain you think God gave you and think.
Wyrzen
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Wyrzen
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it lacks evidence and you or god can't demand us to believe in it, aslong it doesn't give any evidence.


Except for the whole part where I'm not demanding you believe or do anything really, other than learn the capitalize a sentence.

So if w use our free will and don't do what God wants we end up in hell?


Not necessarily. Think of heaven/hell as a point system. Think of how unfair it would be if you did 1000 points of good acts, and 1000.1 points of bad acts; most churches would say "Well that sucks have fun rotting in hell forever". If God is merciful, why would he do that?

JWs, Catholics, Mormons, etc say the same thing to each other all the time. If the scriptures were perfect, there would be no interpretation issues.


Amen. And then there would be a single christian sect, not dozens.

Truth is..this "test" isn't fair either. There are many "guidelines" to follow that are downright ridiculous

1 Corinthians 10:10
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

Hebrews 10:28-29
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God (so, basically..obey old testament)


This example, while well quoted, has to do specifically with the Children of Israel. They had the attention span of gnats, and could follow almost no commands, so God had to get completely ridiculous with them. I think of it kind of like a discipline place or something, where privileges are revoked and the slightest degree of disobedience is severely punished, only because said folks in that area clearly can't follow normal rules so they have to be given completely ridiculous ones. The "Do or die" policy of God really tapers off in the New Testament.

Why is that? God must have created it, since he created everything. Even if it was created as an absence of good. He made sin apart of the system. For what reason would he do that?


It was more of God created everybody, and then some turned around and betrayed him thus bringing evil into the world. But even if you don't believe that, feast on this tidbit; How would we know good without knowing evil? Happiness without joy? Sorrow without gladness? You wouldn't. Without the other, the first does not exist.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Not necessarily. Think of heaven/hell as a point system. Think of how unfair it would be if you did 1000 points of good acts, and 1000.1 points of bad acts;


So I can kill someone so long as I counter that act by say saving two peoples lives? Morality isn't some sort of point system.
partydevil
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partydevil
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Except for the whole part where I'm not demanding you believe or do anything really, other than learn the capitalize a sentence.

your god demands me to believe in him or els i will be punished eternally in hell.
you are his messenger and thus you demand the same of me.

and i capitalize whatever i want.
this is the internet not a important letter.
if your getting on high heels over capitalisation then your even more pathetic then i 1st thought.

Not necessarily. Think of heaven/hell as a point system. Think of how unfair it would be if you did 1000 points of good acts, and 1000.1 points of bad acts; most churches would say "Well that sucks have fun rotting in hell forever". If God is merciful, why would he do that?

give me evidence of this point system plz.
(or any of your other claims)

Amen. And then there would be a single christian sect, not dozens.

you can't all be right. what is the evidence you have that your religion is the right one?
you were mormon right? i think that sect is even more of the hook from reality then 99% of the other christian believes.

It was more of God created everybody, and then some turned around and betrayed him thus bringing evil into the world.

so god did not create everything. others made a part aswell. so 1. he is not omnipotent and 2.he is not all knowing. (if he was all knowing he would have knowed that he was going to be betrayed by said &quoteople&quot.

How would we know good without knowing evil? Happiness without joy? Sorrow without gladness? You wouldn't. Without the other, the first does not exist.


but why would god need to have anything to do whit it?
plz. give me a link between god and this, whit supportive evidence.

oh wait, you can't you have no evidence what so ever..

So I can kill someone so long as I counter that act by say saving two peoples lives? Morality isn't some sort of point system.

putting it this way, it sounds like karma. and we all know karma doesn't exist, right?
OperationNilo
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OperationNilo
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Only have time for a quick answer:

Okay, honestly, I don't even know how to say this without insulting you, so sorry in advance. It's stupid to believe something so wholeheartedly when you don't even understand what it's saying.


My religion is all about faith, and most religions are as well.
Kasic
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Kasic
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My religion is all about faith, and most religions are as well.


Yes, but you're going beyond that. You said that you believe in it even though you don't understand it. You're taking faith to another level and walking around blindly. It's one thing to claim that you trust God in what his plan is, entirely another to say you don't even know what his plan is or why he even does things and still claim to fully trust.
OperationNilo
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OperationNilo
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Yes, but you're going beyond that. You said that you believe in it even though you don't understand it. You're taking faith to another level and walking around blindly. It's one thing to claim that you trust God in what his plan is, entirely another to say you don't even know what his plan is or why he even does things and still claim to fully trust.


I understand my faith, but not even the Pope understands the dogmas of catholicism completely.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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My religion is all about faith, and most religions are as well.


That just says to me that your religion is all about ignorance and blindly believing what you're told without any critical thought. Not a good basis to work from.

but not even the Pope understands the dogmas of catholicism completely.


[cheapjab]What Pope?[/cheapjab] :P
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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I understand my faith, but not even the Pope understands the dogmas of catholicism completely.


1 Peter 3:15 says faith should be readily justified, not blind. Saying "I'm just as unquallified to claim knowledge of God's plans/attributes/qualities/etc as everyone else, but I will anyway" does nothing to support your arguments.
OperationNilo
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OperationNilo
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[cheapjab]What Pope?[/cheapjab] :P


D: please, do shoot me in the head

That just says to me that your religion is all about ignorance and blindly believing what you're told without any critical thought. Not a good basis to work from.


I respect your opinion

1 Peter 3:15 says faith should be readily justified, not blind. Saying "I'm just as unquallified to claim knowledge of God's plans/attributes/qualities/etc as everyone else, but I will anyway" does nothing to support your arguments.


Fascinating.
OperationNilo
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OperationNilo
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Dang, I forgot this as well.

That just says to me that your religion is all about ignorance and blindly believing what you're told without any critical thought. Not a good basis to work from.


I respect your opinion. What you don't know is that I have indeed stopped for a while and thought a bit (and by a bit I mean a lot) about where I was going and what I was doing. Hell, I was an agnostic before. As you can see, I've changed my ways of thinking.
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