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aknerd
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aknerd
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Evolution!

People LOVE to "debate" evolution. But that's silly, and doesn't really solve anything. If you are in a debate about whether or not evolution is a valid theory, you are either debating someone who has little to no idea what what evolution is, or ARE the person who has little to no idea what evolution is. That doesn't sound like very much fun, so let's not do that, okay?

Instead, this thread will be about topics in evolution, because it is much more entertaining to talk about specific cases and ideas than one big overarching theory. The topics will be chosen by whoever has the best topic, with all "lesser" topics being ignored and forgotten.

Now, I'll start us off with what actually made me want to start this thread: randomness. I was reading Mage's post at the bottom of this thread, and immediately thought about genetic drift.

Here is a classic example of genetic drift in a fruit fly population:

Basically, genetic drift states that random sampling has a lot to do with the evolution of small populations. Think about it: say you have a population of four individuals, two males and two females. One female homozygous allele for blue fur, the others all have a homozygous allele for red fur. Mating between blue and red fur produces a heterzygous purple fur creature. We would therefore expect the next generation to have some purple and red individuals, and the one after that to have all three colors represented. Basic Mendelian stuff.

Now, it gets interesting. Lightening strikes the blue female. She's dead, and will never reproduce. Now, all individuals in this population will be forevermore purely red. Note that this is regardless of the fitness of these genes. Blue fur might have been much more beneficial (perhaps these creatures lived in blue grass, and it provided camouflage), due entirely to random events (as opposed to evolutionary pressures) it is RED fur that becomes fixed in the population.

Going back to and contradicting Mage's comment from before, due to genetic drift, having the same selective factors won't guarantee a particular evolutionary outcome, due to simple random events.

So.... Discuss?

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Kasic
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Kasic
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http://armorgames.com/community

just like 7000000000 is a rough estimate.


Seven billion is a rough estimate of what, exactly?

And I'm pretty sure that last week my biology teacher said that we started as bacteria, the fish, birds, apes etc.


Life would have started as self-replicating amino acids which became more complex through repeated instances. Simplified, think of it like a copy machine. If you take a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, millions or billions of times over, it changes. That's what evolution is, organically.

Bacteria are single-celled lifeforms. Multicellular lifeforms came later.

Wikipedia is good for learning basic information.

Also, you want proof for my theories, then give me proof that we evolved or that the earth is old enough for us to evolve from little things


Read the links on his bio.

God made the planet, it didn't form into a round globe after an explosion.


1) Why would God make the entire universe, if all he wanted was to make this one bitsy planet and sun? There are TRILLIONS more stars in the universe which are so far away we can never reach them in a million lifetimes. Further, according to your beliefs, we were never even meant to leave the earth. What was the point of all that?
2) The Big Bang is a bit of a misnomer. It was an expansion, not an explosion. Formation of our solar system did not take place until billions of years after this event, and the earth did not form until a few billion after our sun.

That's retarded. You're all faithless, ignorant losers.


I always love the blatant hypocrisy in how Christianity and Islam are supposed to teach love and acceptance and forgiveness.
EmperorPalpatine
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That's retarded. You're all faithless, ignorant losers.

I think you're in violation of 1 Peter 3:15. Tsk tsk.
NoNameC68
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No Kasic, 8000 is a rough estimate, just like 7000000000 is a rough estimate. And I'm pretty sure that last week my biology teacher said that we started as bacteria, the fish, birds, apes etc. Also, you want proof for my theories, then give me proof that we evolved or that the earth is old enough for us to evolve from little things. God made the planet, it didn't form into a round globe after an explosion. That's retarded. You're all faithless, ignorant losers.


Faith is to believe in something without evidence.

If you believe in something without evidence, and if you believe evolution is wrong because you have "faith" in creationism, there is literally nothing anyone can say to change your mind.

To say, "I have faith in God, therefore evolution is wrong," then you are admitting that there is NOTHING that will change your mind.

Don't say, "show me proof", as if the evidence doesn't exist. The evidence DOES exist, you just won't recognize it as such due to your blind faith in God.

There was a time when I believed casual worship wasn't harmful, you can ask MageGrayWolf that (wow, have we really been around for that long?). But it's people who came to this site denouncing science on the whim of their faith that proved otherwise.
KnightDeclan
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KnightDeclan
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Dude, Kasic, why do u hate me so much. I'm here giving my opinion. All of your responses are against me

NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
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Dude, Kasic, why do u hate me so much. I'm here giving my opinion. All of your responses are against me


Telling someone they're wrong is not hate.

Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it shouldn't be questioned. More importantly, We're not talking a subjective opinion, we're talking about an objective statement.
KnightDeclan
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KnightDeclan
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Okay, those aren't facts. If you give me solid proof, I'll believe. I believe what my teachers tell me.

Kasic
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Kasic
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Dude, Kasic, why do u hate me so much.


I don't hate you. I'll be brutally honest and say that I believe a great many of your views are horribly bigoted and disgusting and illogical, but I don't have anything against you personally. We're here discussing ideas and ideas are subject to inquiry.

I'm here giving my opinion.


Go to the Tavern then. The WEPR is for serious discussions and debates. If you want to tell everyone your're a Christian and not have your reasons questioned, this is not the place to be.

Likewise, you're just as free to question why I'm an atheist. Or any of the views I've said. This is a discussion, not sharing-time.

All of your responses are against me


Because I believe your views to be wrong. However, I have mostly only been questioning your reasons, which you still have not given other than you being Catholic and believing the bible to be the literal truth. Which is akin to saying, "I like pie," when asked why you think a white/brown flour mixed crust with butter and raspberry filling is the best type of pie.

If you give me solid proof, I'll believe.


Fossils, Retroviruses, Ring Species, Dating, Bacterial adaptation to antibiotics. Pick any of those and I'll go into detail about how they prove evolution occurred and is still occurring.
pangtongshu
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pangtongshu
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If you give me solid proof, I'll believe.


...they have

I believe what my teachers tell me.


That's quite the appeal to authority you have there
HahiHa
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Dude, Kasic, why do u hate me so much. I'm here giving my opinion. All of your responses are against me

Saying we are faithless ignorant losers isn't exactly nice either.

Anyway, if you like to read, you could have a look at this:

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution

If you have questions to any of the points mentioned in the link, and don't want to do your own google research, ask here and we'll give more details if possible. Don't be shy to ask, we'll be happy to answer.
MageGrayWolf
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then give me proof that we evolved or that the earth is old enough for us to evolve from little things.


The Evolution Bomb has a new home. This way if anything ever happens to my profile it can still be accessed.
http://mindofmage.blogspot.com/2013/03/evolution-bomb.html

If you have questions to any of the points mentioned in the link, and don't want to do your own google research, ask here and we'll give more details if possible. Don't be shy to ask, we'll be happy to answer.


Yes always happy to educate on the matter. KnightDeclan, I just hope you're open to learning.
KnightDeclan
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I am open to learning if there's obvious proof. It's a theory, not a fact, so I'm not going to believe it unless you can show me complete proof. Some scientist could've made up some random crap so people would call him a freakin genius.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Gravity is only a theory too. Yet we can observe it. Same with evolution. As with gravity, it's as close to a fact as anything scientific will ever get: the concept itself is certainty, the details a little less so.

Let's see.. my and Mage's links gave you quite some bit to read already, but I feel like giving some more general introduction to the concepts; maybe it's easier for you to start from there.

There are some important observations with which we will start:
- Organisms reproduce
- Organisms carry information (genetic code)
- The genetic code gets transmitted from parents to offsprings
- The genetic code recombinates (offsprings inherit random parts from each parent)
- Genes express physical traits (like fur, and length of fur) that are subject to environmental factors (like cold)

Logical conclusion? Since each individual of a population has a unique recombination of different genes, they are more or less subject to different environmental factors than others. So individuals have different chances to survive (it's not necessarily strongly determinant; see it more as a sort of bonus compared to other individuals).

What that means is, certain genes will potentially be inherited more often than others. Tadaa, evolution! Logical conclusion from the simple observation listed above. Evolution is really an inherent factor of life as we know it.

Of course, it's not only a concept, but there is extensive evidence that this concept applies. See the links we gave you before.

Kasic
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Kasic
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I am open to learning if there's obvious proof. It's a theory, not a fact,


It's both Theory and fact.

Some scientist could've made up some random crap so people would call him a freakin genius.


Science doesn't work like religion, whereby someone says something and others simply blindly believe. The claims evolution makes have been tested and refined over a hundred years and literally 99.99% of the scientific community accepts it.

As I offered to do earlier, pick any of the areas I mentioned and I'll show you how they prove the Theory of Evolution.
KnightDeclan
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KnightDeclan
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Actually Kasic, Religion and Science used to go hand-in-hand. Most of the science was started and advanced by the church, as well as music, art, and much mire. Look it up. But because of our corrupt, Godless world today, religion is set apart.

Kasic
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Kasic
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Actually Kasic, Religion and Science used to go hand-in-hand


Somewhat. Islamic scholars were the forefront of scientific advancement in the past. Christianity didn't do much in that area. Even so, it was only so because everyone was religious back then.

Most of the science was started and advanced by the church, as well as music, art, and much mire


Not by the Christian church. Christianity was and still largely is a suppressing force in the pursuit of knowledge.

I see you have not yet picked one of these areas for me to explain how evolution is proven.

Fossils, Retroviruses, Ring Species, Dating, Bacterial adaptation to antibiotics. Pick any of those and I'll go into detail about how they prove evolution occurred and is still occurring.
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