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A new look at religion (refreshing or depressing you decide)

Posted May 21, '13 at 12:58am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

Does any god exist?
Maybe, maybe not. I don't know

Don't forget us agnostics!

agnosticism deals with knowledge, not belief. Being agnostic/gnostic and being atheist/theist are not mutually exclusive positions.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-q2d4A4N5arw/TmEoB9jCjOI/AAAAAAAAC5k/daRnstnWPJE/Agnostic%252520v%252520Gnostic%252520v%252520Atheist%252520v%252520Theist.png

 

Posted May 21, '13 at 1:08am

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

5,011 posts

So are you an atheist if you believe in Buddhism since it is a way of life?

There are different forms of Buddhism. Although there's not a creator god, the devas and asuras are considered deities depending on the context, and (going by what Wiki says) atheism means lacking belief in deities. If you chuck those parts of the religion and cut it down to simply a way of life, with or without afterlives, then yes, it can be atheistic.

Does any god exist?

That depends heavily on how 'god' is defined.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know
Don't forget us agnostics!

Best example I've heard for this point:
There's a jar of jellybeans on a desk. There can only be an odd or even number in the jar. Is the number odd or even? You say, "I don't know". Group A says "Even". Group B says "Not even". The answer of "Not even" includes "Odd", but also includes anything that doesn't affirm the answer of "Even", including the answer of "idk".

 

Posted May 21, '13 at 1:24am

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

5,011 posts

Does any god exist?

Also depends on how 'exist' is defined.

 

Posted May 21, '13 at 1:38am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

That depends heavily on how 'god' is defined.

Errmm, Not really... Maybe you mean like on a pantheistic level, but that would be covered by if what is being called god, is god. If you think what is being called god is not god you still can go back to the do any gods exist question.

Best example I've heard for this point:
There's a jar of jellybeans on a desk. There can only be an odd or even number in the jar. Is the number odd or even? You say, "I don't know". Group A says "Even". Group B says "Not even". The answer of "Not even" includes "Odd", but also includes anything that doesn't affirm the answer of "Even", including the answer of "idk".

You've been watching The Atheist Experience haven't you?

Also depends on how 'exist' is defined.

As in, is real. Does this really need to be turned into a semantics argument?

 

Posted May 21, '13 at 1:53am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

Does any god exist?

I probably should rephrase this to "Do you believe any god exits?"

 

Posted May 21, '13 at 2:31am

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

5,011 posts

but that would be covered by if what is being called god, is god.

It's fine if they go with the generally accepted meaning of "supernatural deity", but it gets muddled when "god is love" or "god is the essence of consciousness" and such, because you could be talking past each other.

You've been watching The Atheist Experience haven't you?

Yep, up to 603 so far. Skipped nearly all of the first 500 tho. Lots of repetition.

Does this really need to be turned into a semantics argument?

Well, it taps into "what is real?" Like, "tangible/observable", and then by what stretch of observation? Because it often becomes like Russell's Teapot or the Invisible Pink Unicorn when "exist" isn't defined.

 

Posted May 21, '13 at 2:44am

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

5,011 posts

To further the first part of that, when someone asks me "Do you believe in (G/g)od", I'll ask what they mean by (G/g)od. They might specify "The Christian/Abrahamic Creator God," to which I'd say no. Or they might abstract it to mean "a higher power," which includes nature as a whole, and I could agree with that.

 

Posted May 21, '13 at 3:55am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

It's fine if they go with the generally accepted meaning of "supernatural deity", but it gets muddled when "god is love" or "god is the essence of consciousness" and such, because you could be talking past each other.

The same thing would apply to calling god love or the essence of consciousness or what ever you want to call god. Is (insert whatever the hell you like) god, a god? If no then we are back to do you believe any gods exist? By saying that  (insert whatever the hell you like) is not god you are not believing in that god's existence in the sense of it being god.

Well, it taps into "what is real?" Like, "tangible/observable", and then by what stretch of observation? Because it often becomes like Russell's Teapot or the Invisible Pink Unicorn when "exist" isn't defined.

"Exist" is defined in those cases, it's a state of being real. The point of whether that state can be observed or not doesn't have to play a role in believing whether I does or not. We can believe things that haven't been measured in some way, it's just that those beliefs are not defensible.

To further the first part of that, when someone asks me "Do you believe in (G/g)od", I'll ask what they mean by (G/g)od. They might specify "The Christian/Abrahamic Creator God," to which I'd say no. Or they might abstract it to mean "a higher power," which includes nature as a whole, and I could agree with that.

But would you be agreeing that nature as a whole is god?

 

Posted May 21, '13 at 9:54am

mbbs112

mbbs112

174 posts

So your God sent imperfect holy books to the other prophets?

No,over time Allah sent messengers to each nation on earth and that the books that he sent before for example Zabur,Injil,etc All the messages that the procphets brought formed the books but the Quran is the perfected one because thats when it spread openly throughout Arabia and

When you say 'sent', do you mean you believe He dropped them out of the sky?

No,Allah would send the books with Hazrat Jibrael who would deliver revelations each year or time and after he would give all the pages Hazrat AbuBakar,a companion of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) told people to form a book of it.

 

Posted May 21, '13 at 11:48am

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

5,011 posts

But would you be agreeing that nature as a whole is god?

Under the "higher power" definition, yes.  Under the general definition, no. That's why it matters. I'd rather answer to their terms than keep referring to a definition they reject.

 
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