ForumsWEPRHow much does Gods omnipotence break creationism

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StDrake
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If I didn't screw anything up let's summ up some creationism:

God created the world some 5000 years ago (or similar relatively short period, devised from the Bible in ways unclear to me) in a state that has almost not changed since then.
Evolution is a lie, as is any history dating back more than the Bible mentions.

Since creationists believe in the creator God, they also believe He is omnipotent, capable of performing any action, any creation. Stating otherwise would be hypocrisy/heresy/blasphemy (choose most appropriate), Let's just skip that He needed to rest after working for 6 days, some of which didn't even exist yet because He hadn't created the day/night cycle yet at that point. The Catholic Church (and who knows which other churches agreed with that) already discovered that Genesis was a prayer-type tome, not a history-type one.

To those still ignorant to the directly above:

Since God is omnipotent, he is not bound by time as we know it and can create THE PAST! including creating a good few billions of years before the original creation and altering the original creation to fit in with the new prehistory..which now includes evolution.

How much chaos does that bring forth?

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HahiHa
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The Catholic Church (and who knows which other churches agreed with that) already discovered that Genesis was a prayer-type tome, not a history-type one.

The difference being assessed on what criteria?

Since God is omnipotent, he is not bound by time as we know it and can create THE PAST! including creating a good few billions of years before the original creation and altering the original creation to fit in with the new prehistory..which now includes evolution.

Since god is omnipotent, he has no need to fiddle with the past and adjust the present. He could create the world whole as it is, like creationist like to believe, already (supposedly) perfect.
As it is not the case (we have evidence for evolution), either there is no god, or said god created the universe and lets things evolve (with or without inference), or he actually has a good reason for doing what you just said (I just don't see one).
Fweaky
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Fweaky
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once again religion starts another war... Why isnt this in question?

MageGrayWolf
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Since God is omnipotent, he is not bound by time as we know it and can create THE PAST! including creating a good few billions of years before the original creation and altering the original creation to fit in with the new prehistory..which now includes evolution.


Wouldn't that make God a deceptive God, aka a liar?

Also an omnipotent creator naturally raised the problem of evil.

1. If an all-powerful and perfectly good god exists, then evil does not.
2. There is evil in the world.
3. Therefore, an all-powerful and perfectly good god does not exist.

The argument of free will and that we introduced evil into the world doesn't get around this as an omnipotent God could create beings with free will that wouldn't introduce evil.
"If God created us perfect, how could we have possibly sinned? If God intended to create us perfectly, but failed, how is he perfect? If God intended to create us imperfectly, how is it our fault for sinning?"

This leaves us with either a God which is either not omnipotent, not good or non existent. If we were to try and fit this God into the creationist narrative. Outside that we could also add the possibility of an indifferent deistic God, creating the universe and just letting things run it's course over billions of years.

Of course omnipotence in itself creates logical problems. For instance having an omnipotent being create a four sided triangle. One way that is put fourth for this omnipotence to remain intact is to add that the omnipotent being can do anything absolutely so long as it's logically consistent. All this does is put a limit on this being, which I would think puts into question the omnipotent status, but further In the case of God "that if god is bound by logic he therefore can not be the author of logic".
TerminatorXM214
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Yello.

MageGrayWolf, just want to point out a few mistakes.

Just because an all-powerful good God exists, that doesn't mean that evil doesn't exist.

God created us perfectly, but his definition of perfect. He did not create us as mindless zombies.
There is no such thing as free will without the ability to sin. If you have free will, you have the ability to sin because your will is free. Doy.

Regarding the problem of omnipotence, I was going to quote what I said on a different forum before I realized that the guy deleted the thread and I've lost it.

So, I shall try to say mainly the same thing:

What is omnipotence?
Many people will say that the definition of omnipotence is the ability to do anything at all. This does indeed raise a problem for Christians who say that God is omnipotent.

Another similar question I heard was "Can God create a rock that he can't lift?"

Obviously, if He's the omnipotent creator of everything, He can create a rock that He can't lift, right? But if He can create a rock that He can't lift, it means there is something He can't do. But if He can't create a rock that He can't lift, than again, there is something He can't do!

So, does that mean that omnipotence is a paradox? Does that mean it's impossible for anything to be omnipotent?
Especially if the omnipotent One is also perfectly good, and thus cannot sin. Another thing He can't do.


But here we get the question, what is the real definition of omnipotence?

I looked it up a few places and got this:

Having full and absolute authority
The ability to do whatever you want
God

Well, that's interesting.
"The Ability to do whatever you want."

So, the real definition of omnipotence is the ability to do whatever you want, not anything.

For what reason would God want to create a 4 sided triangle, or a rock He couldn't lift?

Also, it doesn't have to be logically consistent. Red Sea parting, raising from the dead, how is any of that logical? It happened because He wanted it to.

Thus, God is not bound by logic, nor is His omnipotence a contradiction.

nichodemus
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Having full and absolute authority
The ability to do whatever you want
God

Well, that's interesting.
"The Ability to do whatever you want."



No it's not. That's just some people trying to fit a square peg into a circular hole. What is the definition of omnipotence for Christians? Let's look at some verses.

Matthew 19:26
"But Jesus looked at them and said, âWith man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.â

Luke 1:37
"For nothing will be impossible with God."

Also, it doesn't have to be logically consistent. Red Sea parting, raising from the dead, how is any of that logical? It happened because He wanted it to.

Thus, God is not bound by logic, nor is His omnipotence a contradiction.


If indeed he wanted to do everything he purportedly did in the Bible, he's not fit to be a God, because that God certainly was not benevolent.

Since God is omnipotent, he is not bound by time as we know it and can create THE PAST! including creating a good few billions of years before the original creation and altering the original creation to fit in with the new prehistory..which now includes evolution.

How much chaos does that bring forth?


It doesn't bring chaos. What it does show, is that Creationists will do everything to alter their views slightly, to fit into the latest scientific theory, and then try to present it as something that would not disrupt their dogma. This is indeed pathetic.
EmperorPalpatine
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There is no such thing as free will without the ability to sin.
if the omnipotent One is also perfectly good, and thus cannot sin.

Does that mean God would have no free will Himself?
xeano321
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If indeed he wanted to do everything he purportedly did in the Bible, he's not fit to be a God


Isn't that using Mans definition of a God?
nichodemus
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Isn't that using Mans definition of a God?


Aren't we created in His image?

And yes, we are using Man's definition. I don't think that matters, unless we're now forced to accept that the bloodshed, violence, bigotry filling the pages of the Bible which Man rejects, is a set of criteria/definition that God favours.
TerminatorXM214
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[quote=nichodemus]
No it's not. That's just some people trying to fit a square peg into a circular hole. What is the definition of omnipotence for Christians? Let's look at some verses.

Matthew 19:26
"But Jesus looked at them and said, âWith man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.â

Luke 1:37
"For nothing will be impossible with God."[/quote]

Erm, I took those definitions from Google. That wasn't me "trying to fit a square peg in a round hole."

I think you're getting, but not in the way I intended.
Nothing is impossible for God to do, yet there are things that if He did would contradict His Godliness. Thus, He does not want to do such things, and thus they are not withing His ability to do.
I above explained that the inability to do something is not the inability to be omnipotent, because omnipotence is not being able to do anything, it's being able to do anything you want.
Sounds like a small difference, but it's actually pretty big when referring to an all-knowing ever present God.


[quote=nichodemus]
If indeed he wanted to do everything he purportedly did in the Bible, he's not fit to be a God, because that God certainly was not benevolent. [/quote]

Define "Benevolent".
Better question: when you were a kid, was your idea of benevolence the same as your parents regarding punishment, school, and chores?

Because God can still be a benevolent God without giving everyone what they want, and letting everyone be "happy".
And, just because something bad happens to someone, it doesn't mean they are being punished.
Look at Lot for example. He was a very Godly man, yet everything bad happened to him. How could he be punished for following God and doing what was right? He couldn't!
He was being tested. God allowed Satan to test Lot's faith in Him, and in he end, Lot was even more Godly. So, in testing Lot, God was being benevolent.
But yes, sometimes bad things will happen because you are being punished.
But, when your parents would punish you, were you less likely to do the same thing that got you punished? Maybe, but maybe not in your case. But at very least you knew it was wrong after being punished.
So when God punishes someone, He shows them that they were wrong, thus giving them the chance to make it right.

I believe that a worse punishment in God's eyes would be to not punish you on Earth. Let you live the rest of your life in sin, only to go to Hell after death.


[quote=EmperorPalpatine]
Does that mean God would have no free will Himself?[/quote]

God cannot sin because He doesn't want to. He is omnipotent.
You cannot do it if you don't want to. God cannot want to, because wanting to gives you the ability to, and that would contradict His Godliness.
It's almost circular.

nichodemus
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Erm, I took those definitions from Google. That wasn't me "trying to fit a square peg in a round hole."

I think you're getting, but not in the way I intended.
Nothing is impossible for God to do, yet there are things that if He did would contradict His Godliness. Thus, He does not want to do such things, and thus they are not withing His ability to do.
I above explained that the inability to do something is not the inability to be omnipotent, because omnipotence is not being able to do anything, it's being able to do anything you want.
Sounds like a small difference, but it's actually pretty big when referring to an all-knowing ever present God.


It is fitting a square peg in a round hole. You're using a Googled definition that does not gel with what the Bible or religious authorities state, i.e misleading people. If we take that your Google definition is the true definition, that means the Bible is fallible, and not to be swallowed whole, but dissected.

Furthermore, I fail to see how creating a rock that He cannot lift for example, contradicts His Godliness.

In that case, am I omnipotent too? I don't want to lift a mountain, or create a whole race, or control the weather. I want to get fitter, get richer, get smarter, things that are within my ability. So I am omnipotent, because I have the full ability to do what I wish to.

Define "Benevolent".
Better question: when you were a kid, was your idea of benevolence the same as your parents regarding punishment, school, and chores?


I regard one of the characteristics of a benevolent person, one that does not threaten or punish others for not believing what I want them to be.

Because God can still be a benevolent God without giving everyone what they want, and letting everyone be "happy".
And, just because something bad happens to someone, it doesn't mean they are being punished.
Look at Lot for example. He was a very Godly man, yet everything bad happened to him. How could he be punished for following God and doing what was right? He couldn't!
He was being tested. God allowed Satan to test Lot's faith in Him, and in he end, Lot was even more Godly. So, in testing Lot, God was being benevolent.


I fail to see how letting thousands of infants die before they get a chance at life, reasonable, or even a test. There is nothing to test an infant about.

But yes, sometimes bad things will happen because you are being punished.
But, when your parents would punish you, were you less likely to do the same thing that got you punished? Maybe, but maybe not in your case. But at very least you knew it was wrong after being punished.
So when God punishes someone, He shows them that they were wrong, thus giving them the chance to make it right.


Again, why not create someone who does not need to be punished? Or better still, why arbitrarily create some people in such a fashion that puts them through tests when others don't go through such tests? Why did he decide that certain people need to go through harder and more tests than others? If this is God's will, then He is an extremely unfair and partial being.

I believe that a worse punishment in God's eyes would be to not punish you on Earth. Let you live the rest of your life in sin, only to go to Hell after death.


I believe a worse punishment is accepting a God that wants to control your life in such minute manner.


God cannot sin because He doesn't want to. He is omnipotent.
You cannot do it if you don't want to. God cannot want to, because wanting to gives you the ability to, and that would contradict His Godliness.
It's almost circular.


Just because someone doesn't want to, doesn't mean He can't. Your definition of omnipotent is horrendously skewed to try and cope with modern assaults on theology.
HahiHa
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Nothing is impossible for God to do, yet there are things that if He did would contradict His Godliness. Thus, He does not want to do such things, and thus they are not withing His ability to do.
I above explained that the inability to do something is not the inability to be omnipotent, because omnipotence is not being able to do anything, it's being able to do anything you want.

On the above, you say once that nothing is impossible for god, yet some things are (reasons for that being irrelevant). This is a logical fallacy.
Besides, if he doesn't want to do certain things because they would contradict his godliness, doesn't that mean he is bound not to do those things? You say he chooses not to do certain things, thus they are not within his abilities; but actually, he chooses not to do certain things because they are not within his abilities. There's a difference, and it kills his omnipotence.

Look at Lot for example. He was a very Godly man, yet everything bad happened to him. How could he be punished for following God and doing what was right? He couldn't!
He was being tested. God allowed Satan to test Lot's faith in Him, and in he end, Lot was even more Godly. So, in testing Lot, God was being benevolent.

Benevolent?! You seriously assume all what was done to Job, was out of benevolence? It was a stupid bet, is all. A bet that makes no sense in the light of gods omniscience and benevolence.
You might also want to watch this.

But, when your parents would punish you, were you less likely to do the same thing that got you punished? Maybe, but maybe not in your case. But at very least you knew it was wrong after being punished.
So when God punishes someone, He shows them that they were wrong, thus giving them the chance to make it right.

There's punishment and punishment. You can punish your child if he did something wrong, in which case it has educational value. On this earth, millions of people are being punished for nothing, which is pure sadism. Or do you mean to tell me that all those people starving are all evil? Is it their fault for being born in this situation?
thecode11
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Note i'm not a expert at logic feel free to argue.

On a earlier topic somebody said god is not bound by logic so he could have created man without sin and make them have free will still cause he is supposedly not bound by logic.

nichodemus
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And when you consider the fact that God made us in His image.....hmm.

EmperorPalpatine
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God cannot sin because He doesn't want to.

It's not a matter of wanting to. Sinning means to transgress divine law. He can't sin because He's not subject to it.
pangtongshu
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But, when your parents would punish you, were you less likely to do the same thing that got you punished?


Then again..my parents didn't punish me because of some test to prove how good of a child I was to their friends
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