ForumsWEPR[necro]Nazi unit leader found in US

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Somers
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Somers
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[url=http://news.msn.com/us/shock-lingers-after-nazi-unit-leader-found-in-us]

I kept seeing this on MSN, and it kinda bugged me. Anyways, to sum it up, "An Associated Press investigation found that Karkoc served as a top commander in the Ukrainian Self-Defense Legion during WWII. The unit is accused of wartime atrocities, including the burning of villages filled with women and children" -MSN

Read the article, its interesting. I wasn't aware people were still prosecuting ex Nazis. The man is 94 years old, and lives in Minneapolis. I want to know your opinions on this matter. Should he be prosecuted for crimes that was committed over 70 years ago?

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SSTG
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SSTG
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@KnightDeclan


They did not rape, they were Christians, led by priests and holy warriors. And i don't think you all get it. The crusades were acts of taking back what was rightfully theirs. You mess with the bull, u get the horns, unlike other genocides which were to innocent people doing nothing wrong.

You need to read before you make a fool of yourself.
Go to your local library or download free e-books about the Crusades from http://www.archive.org for free and read for your own sake!

A lot of horrible stuff happens, especially on the Fourth Crusade when Europeans (French, German, Spanish, etc, attacked their own (Byzantium) and pillaged, raped, massacred Greeks as well as Jews, they stole icons and relics from churches, gold, (the Lions of St-Marc that are now standing in Venice) and left the city practically in ruin.
After that it was easier for the Turks to come and conquer Byzantium using their big cannons and overwhelmingly bigger army.

In case you don't know this, Byzantium (Constantinople) is now called Istanbul.
danielo
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danielo
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Well, the seljuk did forbiden christians from getting in. This what the thing that pulled the trigger. After a short period of time they saw what a horrible idea it was and canceled this law, but thw cruasade did happened.

Does the sack of Constantinople was an act of war?

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Laudable plead, Minotaur. If there wasn't the thing that he was a commander of a unit that committed serious warcrimes. If only for this, he has to be trialed so justice can try to find out what exactly was his part in this.

Personally, I'm not sure many of those former commmanders really have troubles living with it. As you said, Germans were also victims, and were forced/brainwashed to take part in this. But what mindset does it take to become a commander of an SS unit? I'm not saying he IS like that, but just for the chance of him being, he cannot be simply left alone.

danielo
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danielo
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Do you know about the white rose organization? They were a bunch of students who protested against the nazis in 1939. They were thrown to conecntration camps shortly after.

There were some (not so many at all. A very very small amount) who tried to actagainst the death regiem of the Nazies.

If this basterd wanted, he could hide jews in his house. He could help a gay man help to run away from the country. He could do SOMETHING. No one was forced (well, most) to serve in a camp. This guy is not feeling guilty. No obe forced him to murdur. Its just a big lie, that they tell to us, they tell it to there kids and to themselve. There were peoples who acted against the nazis.

And for last, he is from Ukrain. He VULENTEERD to join to SS units. No one said "be an officer or die!".

There are peoples who grew up in a place wher stoning a man who as darker skin color is totaly legit. That atheists are deamons, that jews are monster. So saying "he was born that way" will make him innocente? NO!

It dosent matter when he did ot. The nazi need to pay for his crimes.

KnightDeclan
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In case you don't know this, Byzantium (Constantinople) is now called Istanbul.

I'm very familiar with the Byzantium Empire

nichodemus
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He should be found guilty; time does not acquit you of your crimes. It does however, give you the nifty option of not being jailed, due to age. Punishment is the only question here; should he be punished or not?

Acquitting him is NOT, if enough evidence is accrued to show his crime. Even if it was forced upon him during Nazi rule, there were sections of the populace that actively resisted the Nazi. We should be able to forgive criminals and move on eventually, but this does not extend to the point whereby we acquit them, in effect giving them the stamp of approval that signifies their Scot-free status under the closed eyes of the law.

KnightDeclan
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KnightDeclan
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Obama ordered a drone strike which killed a 16 year old boy at a bbq. he ordered death, just like this guy did. I think all world leaders have done wrong. It doesn't take away from what he did, but still, he doesn't deserve to be treated like they treated Mussolini, or Rudolph Hess, or Franco.

partydevil
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partydevil
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he doesn't deserve to be treated like they treated Mussolini, or Rudolph Hess, or Franco.

he does deserve to be treated as any other civilian on this planet.
he is not a special case because he is old. there are prisons for old people aswell.
pangtongshu
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pangtongshu
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Obama ordered a drone strike which killed a 16 year old boy at a bbq. he ordered death


No. No he didn't.

If I'm thinking of the same incident, which I'm pretty sure you yourself gave me a link to...the boy was merely collateral damage. Nothing new in war times.
Minotaur55
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Laudable plead, Minotaur. If there wasn't the thing that he was a commander of a unit that committed serious warcrimes. If only for this, he has to be trialed so justice can try to find out what exactly was his part in this.


Exactly so.

We should be able to forgive criminals and move on eventually, but this does not extend to the point whereby we acquit them, in effect giving them the stamp of approval that signifies their Scot-free status under the closed eyes of the law.


What you don't realize is that the length of this situation is to a high extreme, 5 - 8 months of community service is not going to cut it when 11 million people were killed. The man is either going to be acquitted or is going to spend his last breaths behind bars. No judge, in any world, is going to over look the numbers. And if he is indeed innocent, which the numbers may be very slim, is a judge going to send him to prison for, lets say, 10 years? Is this anyway to punish a innocent? Not to mention a 94 year old man?

The gravity of the situation is rather heavy. Trial will be interesting to say the least. With the traditional views of the law, the man is going to rot behind bars, innocent or not. This is no normal case to say the least. Most of the remaining Nazi associates are indeed dead, but if they are that age, and forced into a situation like this, traditional views will be a bit harsh, considering that vendetta over comes all logic leading to horrible actions that he will live and die with.

It does however, give you the nifty option of not being jailed, due to age.


Yes, it does. It's what separates the mercy of human beings from the strict emotionless unvaried-ness of laws.
EmperorPalpatine
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glitch

daleks
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Sigh. I hate this argument. There is no clear cut way. Everyone has their own opinion. Imao probably most of you would have done the same if you were in the situation that a German person was at the time. Let's start by looking at the history and what happened.

WW1 happened. Regulations are put on Germany. Germany is crushed, can barely have a reasonable army, blah blah. Hitler gains power. People "like" Hitler. He turns the Economy around and gives faith back to the German people. Now that the German's are back on their feet Hitler looks for someone to blame for what happened. The Jews would be a prime choice. They have been hated by Christians for years. So let's all blame the Jews for our problems! Now let's fully rebuild Germany, tanks, war, blah, blah. Hitler has full power! Now the German's either obey him or they and their family will be killed. So what do you do? You follow Hitler! You don't want to see your family die because of you. You would much rather see Joe Smough down the street die. WWII, blah blah.

Hitler dies. O no! What has been happening here? All these Jews have been brutally killed. The Nazi's must pay for this.
From here on out 'P' will be the prosecutor and 'N' will be the Nazi.
P: So you were the one that pulled the lever that gassed the Jews?
N: Yes sir
P: Why did you do it?
N: I was ordered to sir.
P: And did you have a choice in following these orders?
N: No sir.
P: And what would have happened if you had disobeyed these orders?
N: My family and I would have been killed sir. I was just protecting those I loved.

Basically this is what happened in the trials. The Nazi would say that they were just following orders. The question then leads to where to draw the line. Do we kill everyone that had a part? Do you kill only the very high ups? It is a tough question.

Now at this probably thinking, Daleks, you idiot scumbag Jew hater Nazi lover ***, I would never do such a thing. I would have stood up for what was right! I am an angel!
And to you I say, fat chance. Let's look at the facts, Stanford Prision Experiment. Look it up. Milgram experiment. Look it up as well. Having an authority figure, position, and many other factors come into play.

Anyway, typing this is taking forever because I am on my phone. Look into the experiments. Look into obedience to authority. Watch V for Vendetta. Watch A Few Good Men.

It is all opinion. Opinions differ. Now lots of you will yell at my post. Have fun.

pangtongshu
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pangtongshu
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Not everyone, however, was just merely "following orders".

Also..
What constitutes a war crime?
Here you will find that the excuse of "I was just following orders" doesn't hold well

daleks
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@pang
First link - Evidence was the same as the Stanford Prison Experiment. Power of the situation and just having power.

2nd Link - Nothing about being killed if you didn't follow. Might have had a part.

EmperorPalpatine
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It appears that what counted as a crime against humanity, which is what this would be a case of, was defined into law after the events. Doesn't seem very fair.

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