ForumsWEPRSo, Reincarnation Anyone?

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infinight888
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infinight888
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Shepherd

In a change of topic, away from Christianity and Illuminati conspiracy theories, I was wondering what your opinions are on reincarnaton.

Earlier, while searching for somehing else entirely, I came acrossed this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF3KqGpxXvo

I've been trying to figure out how to debunk it, but it seems pretty legit for the most part. If you do believe in reincarnation, how would you explain it scientifically? If you don't, how would you debunk the above video?

I'm going to do a bit more resarch into the topic.

  • 35 Replies
Bladerunner679
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Bladerunner679
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Jester

away from Christianity and Illuminati conspiracy theories


aww, are we no longer fun?

your opinions are on reincarnaton.


honestly, I have no idea. the video itself would challenge the beliefs of any weaker man, but I have a feeling that this can be explained. I, however, will not be the one to try.

-Blade
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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What's odd is they think their story will show people how precious life is, but reincarnation has often been used to justify killing. A few years ago, I read an ancient Indian (the subcontinent) war story about a prince reluctant to go into battle, fearing his soldiers would suffer and their families would grieve or something. An advisor basically told him that the body count on either side doesn't matter because everyone comes back in some form anyway.

Bladerunner679
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Bladerunner679
2,491 posts
Jester

away from Christianity and Illuminati conspiracy theories


aww, are we no longer fun?

your opinions are on reincarnaton.


honestly, I have no idea. the video itself would challenge the beliefs of any weaker man, but I have a feeling that this can be explained. I, however, will not be the one to try.

-Blade
Xzeno
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Xzeno
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A few years ago, I read an ancient Indian (the subcontinent) war story about a prince reluctant to go into battle, fearing his soldiers would suffer and their families would grieve or something. An advisor basically told him that the body count on either side doesn't matter because everyone comes back in some form anyway.
I feel like I know the story you're refering to. If I have the right one, first off, calling it "a story" about "a prince" is a bit like saying the bible is "a book" about "a dude". Wait, it's exactly like saying that!

Anyway, I refuse to watch the video on the grounds that it is a video, and I doubt I'm the only one. Could you please summarize it?
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Grand Duke

Independent of the video (like Xzeno, I would appreciate a summary, but mainly cuz I'm lazy 0.o), you would need to evidence the existence of a soul, in whatever form; an entity that is you, uninfluenced by the physical world.

Of course this is only the beginning; evidencing the existence of a soul further means you need to evidence it can, in fact, survive after death, then that it can, in fact, reincarnate into a physical form. And I'm sure there are other problems, but those seem the most basic.

But again, as long as we have no evidence for souls, everything's just nice stories.

partydevil
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partydevil
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calling it "a story" about "a prince" is a bit like saying the bible is "a book" about "a dude".

seems right to me to describe it that way... of course there is more to it. but for a fast and short description "the bible is a book about a dude" will do.

as long as we have no evidence for souls, everything's just nice stories.

+1
Moegreche
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Moegreche
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I would appreciate a summary, but mainly cuz I'm lazy 0.o


The basic idea is that this kid seemed to know a tremendous amount of information regarding the life and death of a WWII pilot who was shot down and killed. Some of the more incredible claims were his ability to identify veterans who fought with the fighter pilot, his family, and also the circumstances surrounding his death.

If you don't, how would you debunk the above video?


The way that the video is presented makes it very difficult to debunk. My initial thought is that this family is just lying to get attention. This has happened before with hauntings or possessions (either by a demon or some sort of spirit) so maybe it's just another instance of that.
It might also be that the family, in doing research about some vague things the child said, cemented a child's imagination into a story that they actually believe. We often attribute some sort of knowledge to a person when they say something vague and we make the connection for them. This happens with psychics, for example.

As a theory of the afterlife, however, reincarnation has some serious problems. As already mentioned, we would have to adopt a notion of a soul, but let's grant that there is one. Now the problems is one of simple arithmetic. First off, where did the original souls come from? Second, the number of people on Earth is increasing every day, so where are these new souls coming from? There are also times in history when human population has dropped dramatically due to war, disease, or environmental factors. What happens to the extra souls during these times?

But, of course, this only addresses what we might call 'full-on reincarnation' in which all human souls are reincarnated. But this might not be the case, and perhaps this kid is just one of a handful of souls that have been reincarnated. This approach is far more difficult to disprove, but also incredibly difficult to motivate.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Grand Duke

First off, where did the original souls come from? Second, the number of people on Earth is increasing every day, so where are these new souls coming from? There are also times in history when human population has dropped dramatically due to war, disease, or environmental factors. What happens to the extra souls during these times?

I've been thinking about this one, there are cultures in which reincarnation is not necessarily from human to human, but includes animals (like insects, whose numbers are hard to determine (and what if we include plants too?)). It could explain parts of the arithmetic issue, although mass extinction for example still would need more explanations.
Kasic
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Kasic
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It could explain parts of the arithmetic issue, although mass extinction for example still would need more explanations.


Not even parts. Where did the souls of said insects come from?
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Not even parts. Where did the souls of said insects come from?

Oh, you mean as in all souls started as humans? That then would be a problem, yeah. I was thinking of a sort of big number of souls to begin with.

Then again, that concept would not go well at all with evolution, or how populations grow. Populations have clear dynamics, they don't fluctuate depending on how nice all other beings have been..
Minotaur55
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Minotaur55
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I believe in reincarnation. It doesn't go hand and hand with physics, and I am not entirely sure if there is a place spirit energy based entities go when they pass on, but the transformation of energy is indeed true. Energy changes and is never destroyed. Well, rarely.

In the form of a human being, I am not sure. In the form of something else such as oxygen or matter, ok I might buy it. But I wont subscribe to it just yet. Things like seasons do have a cycle of life that they obey but human beings I am not sure due to our diverse and changing explanation of origin and life force.

All I can say is that the possibility of my energy being transformed into something else is highly logical but it returning to the state it was is previously is yet to be determined.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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I believe in reincarnation. It doesn't go hand and hand with physics, and I am not entirely sure if there is a place spirit energy based entities go when they pass on, but the transformation of energy is indeed true. Energy changes and is never destroyed. Well, rarely.


If we are to argue that a soul being some form of energy, the argument that energy changes states would actually go against reincarnation. For these memories and such of past lives to continue on that energy would have to remain unchanged to a certain degree.

As for the story. We would really need more details to truly debunk it. The first thing that would have to be ruled out would be if the parties involved are simply lying. but let's grant them that they aren't lying.

Further research on the story reveals this video is actually leaving out an important detail. His fascination with WWII and planes started at 18 months old when he was taken to an air museum and spend 3 hours in the WWII exhibit. It was after that these nightmares and such started. It's quite likely with such an obsession he would have managed to pick up all sorts of details along the way.
As such we would then have to find a way to rule out the possibility that he simply found these details without the parents knowledge and is running on false memories created from this information. Again I'm not saying this is the case, I'm simply saying this is just one more point that would have to be investigated an eliminated before we can start entertaining the notion of reincarnation. We would also have to ask why it would only start after being introduced to a museum exhibit.

Now after this obsession started with James his grandmother suggests he go to a therapist who then encouraged James to share his memories.
This suggests that James could have been either deliberately or unintentionally manipulated into having false memories of WWII events.

As the reincarnation idea becomes more ingrained a couple of people who have written books on the matter are brought in. At least one of which (Ian Stevenson) is known for asking leading question to youths. (Leading Questions: try to lead the respondent to your way of thinking.) This would seem to only further suggest the possibility of the existence of false memories based on true information that the boy was exposed to.

Now about his hits . (the points he got right)
Signing his name "James 3"
This one is not surprising given he had recently turned 3 years old at the time he started doing that. It would be a bit more interesting if he was signing the name "James III", but not by much.
Getting specific names. Given the likely hood James has either been intentionally or inadvertent lead on at this point, we really can't say much of anything. Did he really at first say this or was it something that was just similar?
Could he have picked up any of these details some place and the parties involved simply don't remember him doing so, or the parents are just mus-remembering events as well?
Could we also have a case of confirmation bias, where the parties involved are only remembering the hits James has gotten over the years but are forgetting all the misses? Of course given the nature of the way the story was told in the video any such misses would have likely been left out.

So would I call this debunked? No. Would I call this compelling evidence for reincarnation? No.
partydevil
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partydevil
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although mass extinction for example still would need more explanations.


this could be translated back to plagues somewhere else in the world if you want to.
there is a lot wrong with doing so, but a believer can do it.

Not even parts. Where did the souls of said insects come from?


god has souls in his paradise that go in a cycle from earth to his place.
if he wants more souls then he can create them.
see heaven as gods stockpile of souls to play with in the earth-realm.

As for the story. We would really need more details to truly debunk it.

i recently met someone who believes in spiritual stuff. but not the godly stuff.
i know she has really been digging into it professionally and found some good video's (multiple of about 25min each) explaining what and how this sort of never ending energy kinda reincarnation is.
i'll probably see her again somewhere this week. i will ask the links then.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Grand Duke

god has souls in his paradise that go in a cycle from earth to his place.
if he wants more souls then he can create them.
see heaven as gods stockpile of souls to play with in the earth-realm.

Or, souls are not always separate entities and when not incarnated, are part of one big common divine entity; chunks of said entity integrate a bodily envelope when a living being becomes alive (lots of problems and disputes to have about this point :P) and fusion back into the original mass when the envelope dies. So no direct reincarnation, but still sort of. (Isn't there some Eastern/Asian cult that thinks the souls lose individuality and integrate a common divine consciousness after death? I'm sure I've read abouot something like that..)
pangtongshu
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pangtongshu
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A random thought..

Let's assume that reincarnation was in fact true. Would we then have to take a step back and re-evaluate certain laws...specifically those pertaining to assisted suicide and possibly murder?

For assisted suicide..an argument could then arise that the person wishing to die has become too miserable in their current life, and wishes to move on to the next to escape such misery. Of course..this decision could negatively impact those close to the person..but ultimately it is that person's decision. Would we then be allowed to re-open the doors back up to assisted suicide?

And for murder. There then becomes an argument opened up that the person did not commit the crime out of anger, spite, etc., but in order to allow the "victim" to move on to a better life, per se. Would laws pertaining to murder have to become readjusted to adhere to this argument?

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