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George Zimmermann Found Not Guilty

Posted Jul 15, '13 at 12:28pm

Maverick4

Maverick4

3,707 posts

Anyway, Here are the undisputed facts as I understand them:  Man with gun suspects that unarmed teenager is a criminal and follows him.  There was a physical altercation of some sort, and man shoots teenager.

Zimmerman did not know Martin to be unarmed at the time.

The man was the only one with a motive

I do not think that word means, what you think it means.

Zimmerman was on a Neighborhood Watch -- He was supposed to look for suspicious individuals.

Trayvon was simply walking home from the quik-e-mart.  The man was the only one with a weapon

Both piece of information were unknowable to Zimmerman at the time of the incident.

but if we had to guess

I assume the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" means nothing to you?

UPDATE: DoJ Faces roadblock in attempt to file civil rights charges against Zimmerman, as the FBI found no evidence that Zimmerman was a racist, nor that the shooting was racially motivated.

 

Posted Jul 15, '13 at 12:29pm

Getoffmydangle

Getoffmydangle

148 posts

Martin started the fight...with even some racial slurs of his own

Could you link that?  gracias

 

Posted Jul 15, '13 at 12:45pm

Getoffmydangle

Getoffmydangle

148 posts

Zimmerman did not know Martin to be unarmed at the time.

Did I say he did?  In fact, he may have assumed the black kid he (incorrectly) thought was a criminal was armed.  And yes, I agree, that is indicative of racial profiling. 

I do not think that word means, what you think it means.

I do appreciate the princess bride reference, but here: motive:

something that causes a person to act in a certain way, do a certain thing, etc.; incentive.

So as you astutely pointed out, he had a motive.   If a cop kills a criminal to stop him from committing a crime, that is a motive.  If a wannabe cop, wash-out pall blart mall cop, who was fired for aggressive behavior kills an unarmed teenager whilst "patrolling" the neighborhood in the service of an unofficial "neighborhood watch," ...  that is his motive.   

Both piece of information were unknowable to Zimmerman at the time of the incident.

So maybe he shouldn't have been making assumptions.  Clearly he has demonstrated his low skill-level at making assumptions.  Plus, You know what happens when you assume right?  you make an A__ out of ...killing an unarmed teenager. 

I assume the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" means nothing to you?

Other than the fact that I used it later on (or earlier, its on the previous page so i can't look) in the same post...no (sarcasm alert). 
    Cherry-pick much?
But seriously, i acknowledged that I am not on the jury, because then my behavior would be influenced by that context.  but I am not, so it is not.  We are discussing opinions here, and my opinion is that he is guilty.  Also earlier on I also stated that he was acquitted due to a lack of evidence.... do you even read or are you just so desperate to make a point that you cherry-pick anything you can?

 

Posted Jul 15, '13 at 2:25pm

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

5,011 posts

The man was the only one with a motive
something that causes a person to act in a certain way, do a certain thing, etc.; incentive.

Under that definition, how did TM not also have motive?

 

Posted Jul 15, '13 at 5:25pm

dms269

dms269

49 posts

He directly disobayed police telling him not to follow Trayvon Martin and ended up killing him

I think this is a large misconception about the case. Police never told him "Do not follow him". Dispatch said, "we don't need you to do that".

 

Posted Jul 15, '13 at 6:02pm

pangtongshu

pangtongshu

8,704 posts

 

Posted Jul 15, '13 at 6:03pm

pangtongshu

pangtongshu

8,704 posts

Whoops...second one should read "Zimmerman's account backed by eye-witness accounts" as well

 

Posted Jul 15, '13 at 9:17pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

What does race have to do with it? Both are minorities (Martin is African, Zimmerman Peruvian), no? Show me proof that it aas a racist incident; Because the State of Florida simply must not have tried hard enough.

It's believed that Zimmerman thought Martin was looking suspicious because he was black. There is a possibility of racism from Zimmerman given there was racism against Africa Americans from others in his family.

Zimmerman was on a Neighborhood Watch -- He was supposed to look for suspicious individuals.

There has been some question as to whether this watch was authorized or just Zimmerman taking things into his own hands. Though that point I don't think is all that important. Either way Zimmerman's initial motive to go on a watch was to try and help his community after thefts occurred.

A bit of hypothesizing/speculating on what happened. After several thefts in the neighborhood Zimmerman took up a neighborhood watch, possibly looking to play hero. While on the watch he notices martin walking along and figures that a black kid walking around at night is suspicious behavior. Zimmerman calls into the dispatcher that there is someone suspicious and tells dispatch that he will follow them. Dispatch tells Zimmerman that it's not necessary. Zimmerman proceeds to follow Martin, decides to play hero and get's out of his car and begins to harass Martin about being out. This begins to get on Martins nerves to the point where he turns around and hits Zimmerman. The violence escalates with Martin getting the upper hand in the fight until Zimmerman manages to pull his gun. Martin probably tried to get the gun away from Zimmerman and Zimmerman shot and killed Martin.

I tend to agree with LiberalViewer on the verdict. We do have to treat things as innocent until proven guilty. Unfortunately that isn't always the case and unfortunately that means people who really are guilty sometimes slip through because of lack of evidence to that guilt.

Why George Zimmerman Was Found Not Guilty For Killing Trayvon Martin (LiberalViewer)
Why People Should Be Outraged at Zimmerman's 'Not Guilty' Verdict (TYT)

I would also like to make mention of the Stand your ground law. Prior to this a person would have to first try to retreat before being allowed to defend them self. Though this left situations where a person was unable to retreat and they would get in trouble for not making the attempt.

 

Posted Jul 15, '13 at 10:43pm

Getoffmydangle

Getoffmydangle

148 posts

All in all this is a very disturbing and unfortunate case.   

Those links you provided do not prove who started the fight, they merely repeat several times what the killer said, and what the killer's lawyer said.  It does seem like Trayvon was winning the fight though, which is the only shred of validation for the self-defense claim.  But as you noted, eye-witness testimony is staggeringly innacurate. 
The problem I see is that Trayvon had the same right to self-defense that Zimmerman had.  So the indisputable facts of the case (as opposed to 'evidence' that was presented), suggest that Zimmerman was at least partially responsible for the fight happening in the first place, which places doubt on the self-defense claim.  And unless I am mistaken (which happens, cuz i know squat about the law) the defense has somewhat of a burden of proof if they are pursuing a legal defense of 'self-defense.'
 
There was also no evidence (that I saw) that Martin called zimmerman a cracker (which would indicate he was being aggressive or provocative.)  He texted that to his friend, to express concern the a man (who later killed him) was following him. 

And on a personal note.... the only white people who are mad about the word "cracker" are the white people who don't think its fair that they can't say the N-word in public anymore.

 

Posted Jul 16, '13 at 12:41am

Maverick4

Maverick4

3,707 posts

Did I say he did?  In fact, he may have assumed the black kid he (incorrectly) thought was a criminal was armed.  And yes, I agree, that is indicative of racial profiling.

Sine you're still hung up on your misconception that it was racially motivated, I'll refer you to the link I posted above where an FBI investigation concluded that Zimmerman was not motivated by race, nor was he a racist.

So as you astutely pointed out, he had a motive.   If a cop kills a criminal to stop him from committing a crime, that is a motive.  If a wannabe cop, wash-out pall blart mall cop, who was fired for aggressive behavior kills an unarmed teenager whilst "patrolling" the neighborhood in the service of an unofficial "neighborhood watch," ...  that is his motive.

Technically, it's a stretch. And even assuming that that was his his "motive", its an incredibly weak and does nothing to establish any alintent to commit a crime.

Cherry-pick much?

Fight bias with bias, or something like that. :)

But seriously, i acknowledged that I am not on the jury, because then my behavior would be influenced by that context.

In the future, I'd advise you never to admit to a bias in a debate. All you're doing is delegitimizing your position, and tying a rather hefty mill stone around your ankles.

We are discussing opinions here, and my opinion is that he is guilty

Then your "opinion" is wrong, because a court of law has allready found him to be innocent.

do you even read or are you just so desperate to make a point that you cherry-pick anything you can?

lol

 
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