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Posted Aug 11, '13 at 7:55pm

Reiki000

Reiki000

227 posts

When he make a threaty its ok, when he break it its ok .

Yes I'm a bit late with this but I must say this. First of all to start with here are two verses from the quran:

"Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him](Qur'an 9:4)".

And

"How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him](Qur'an 9:7)".

So, saying "when he breaks it its ok" is just utterly BS. We muslims must stick to treaties we make. Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) has never broken any treaty in his whole life.

Just wanted to note this :)

Greetings

 

Posted Aug 12, '13 at 5:24am

MacII

MacII

1,369 posts

... Back to the present, not an uninteresting piece, I thought, here: Tariq Ramadan, "Beyond Islamism," http://tariqramadan.com/spip.php?article13030&lang=en .

Mind you, this call for a revival under what I'd call a certain romanticism or mysticism (culturally and intellectually inspired and all) I'm afraid may be no more than just that: Romantic, indeed (perhaps not free even from a certain Orientalism), and reminding one of other writers and thinkers within their own contexts (Camus sprang to my mind, and his dream of something of a pan-Mediterranean revival, at the end of his The Rebel) whose notions indeed were carelessly if not brutally swept aside by history. But, if it is no more than say a poetic call, then perhaps even that call is itself always worth it.

 

Posted Aug 13, '13 at 8:51pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,676 posts

Knight

I have questions for all of you who are believe in Islam.

Have you ever seriously questioned your beliefs? I mean have you ever thought for any length of time "Is what I'm believing real?", "Are the things the people around me telling me correct?". 

Have you ever tried to evaluate what you believe objectively, with your faith just set aside for a moment? Of course I'm not saying dropping or losing your faith. I'm saying evaluating what you believe as if it wasn't real rather than starting from the point that it was real.

 

Posted Aug 14, '13 at 7:17am

MacII

MacII

1,369 posts

Always a fair question, I suppose.

The question then however would seem to be why ask it just of Muslims. It doesn't take a religious thinker for that matter to be stuck in their own preconceptions.

 

Posted Aug 14, '13 at 8:21am

MacII

MacII

1,369 posts

Also the other day, came across this: "Islam and Islamism," by Salim Mansur, Gatestone Institute, July 23, 2013.

Mind you, that institute if the author is affiliated to it would seem at a glance pretty right-wing to me, and I have my doubts about these supposed freedoms of moderation supposedly to be supported and defended by "the West" (at least begging the question of what, why, when and how in greater detail); but either way, the author in my view does make a whole heap of valid and underhighlighted arguments. E.g., where he argues that:

[...]At the center of the current convulsion in the Muslim world, or Islamdom, as in Turkey and Egypt, is the contest between Islamists and anti-Islamists, between theocrats and anti-theocrats. This contest is hugely complicated by the turmoil that inevitably accompanies the transition of societies and cultures from pre-modern to modern. Here, the relevant analogy to understanding this convulsion within Islamdom is to recall Christendom's long, tortuous, immensely bloody and violent transition in the making of the modern world. This is the history of the past 500 years, from the Inquisition through to the end of the Cold War -- and to be forgotten at our peril.

[...] If Islamism is Islam, as some in the West insist, then it logically follows that the West is at odds with all Muslims without there being any need to make distinctions among them, and Islam itself is the threat to the West as a civilization. This would mean that the West and the Muslim world are at war; that Islam is monolithic and the notion of anti-Islamist Muslims is absurd as none exists; and that any sort of engagement with the Muslim world, consisting of some 1.7 billion people, with expectations of coexistence in peace and mutual respect is foolish, as Muslims without exception, openly or through dissembling, seek the destruction of the West. It is not surprising that such a view is the flip side of the deadly insistence by Islamists that non-Muslims, without exception, are infidels; that Muslims opposed to Islamism are heretics and apostates, and that their struggle, the global jihad, is the genuine face of Islam in carrying out God's work of establishing His rule everywhere.

If Islamism genuinely is Islam, the question follows, Why is it that so many Muslims repudiate the assertion of Islamists and, despite immense risks, continue to resist the theocrats in their midst? Why is it that in huge numbers " for instance, the many millions as we have seen recently in the streets of Cairo and other Egyptian cities; or in Tunisia; or in Istanbul and elsewhere in Turkey; or in Dhaka and towns across Bangladesh in support of guilty verdicts handed down in trials of members of Jamaat-i-Islami indicted for crimes against humanity during the nation's liberation war of 1971; or the near total rejection of Islamist religious parties during the recently held national election in May in Pakistan; or the vast support of Iranians, especially the young voters, for anti-establishment politicians during the recent and past elections -- Muslims reject Islamism as authoritarian, supremacist and a violent perversion of Islam?

[...] The simple fact is that Islam and Islamism are not one and the same. Islamism as a totalitarian ideology is a perversion of Islam: Muslims are engaged in a historic struggle, just as once Christians were, in striving to reconcile revelation and reason; in separating religion from politics; in acknowledging the place of philosophy and science in the making of the modern world; in coming to terms with the imperatives of democracy and individual rights, and protecting freedom of religion and freedom of conscience equally for everyone irrespective of their belief, ethnicity, or gender. What is at play is the not-so-pleasant, complex reality of reform: of the historic transition of Muslim societies and cultures, from pre-modern into the modern world. It is a reminder for those who have forgotten, or never learned, how bitterly fought was Christendom's transition, stretched out over several centuries. [...]

 

Posted Aug 14, '13 at 2:24pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,676 posts

Knight

The question then however would seem to be why ask it just of Muslims. It doesn't take a religious thinker for that matter to be stuck in their own preconceptions.

Yes it is a good question to ask of anyone really. I'm just focusing on the Islamic belief since that's the topic of the thread.

 

Posted Aug 14, '13 at 8:58pm

bingu77788

bingu77788

235 posts

Can I ask you Muslims something? Is there any proof of Allah?

Just asking,
Bing

 

Posted Aug 15, '13 at 7:58am

MacII

MacII

1,369 posts

Can I ask you Muslims something? Is there any proof of Allah?

Just the other day on Dutch mainstream evangelical TV (traditionally a highly conservative broadcasting company, but over the past decade or so they're doing not a bad job of getting more actively involved with highlighting social issues in a somewhat more progressive fashion, and so positioning themselves as Christians in a somewhat more progressive light), I saw the otherwise intelligent and indeed somewhat progressive interviewer countering an argument regarding God's existence with the highly serious assertion that since it can't be proven he doesn't exist, the believers actually merit the benefit of the doubt. (In other words, "therefore" he must exist. You know, spoken with those sparkling eyes to underline the case, such as only a true believer can. Religious or irreligious, I'll add again.)

Sure, Muslims may answer the question of their own, just as well, but again, I'm just sayin'. Truly a long way to go yet, all of us, it seems.

 

Posted Aug 15, '13 at 8:54am

Moegreche

Moegreche

2,796 posts

Moderator

Can I ask you Muslims something? Is there any proof of Allah?

This question seems to have an implicit assumption that the existence of an Islamic god is somehow more dubious than any other god. It comes across to me as offensive, though I'm probably just reading too much into it.
Still, this line of questioning is highly defeasible. There is no more proof (in whatever relevant sense you like) that the god of Islam exists than the god of Christianity of Judaism.

In fact, I would counter by pointing out that the god of Islam doesn't suffer from the same catastrophic logical inconsistencies that, say, the god of Christianity clearly has. So perhaps in this sense there is more proof of Allah (with 'proof' being contextually relativised).

 

Posted Aug 15, '13 at 2:02pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,676 posts

Knight

This question seems to have an implicit assumption that the existence of an Islamic god is somehow more dubious than any other god. It comes across to me as offensive, though I'm probably just reading too much into it.

I fail to see how asking if there is evidence of a specific claim implies in any way that other variations are less dubious.

 
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