Forums → WEPR → [nec]Christianity vs Atheism
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I am a christian, i and i strongly belive in my lord jesus christ, and i also belive that if you belive in him and except him as your savior, u will go to heaven. and i also believe that he created the world, not the big bang, or that we came from stupid apes.
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Please elaborate. How were they closer to man than the judeo-christian deity?
If you read some greek mythology, you will see that the greek gods were very close to their worshippers. I think the most important thing to notice here is that they had human character traits. Just look at Zeus: he got easily angry, and we're not even talking about his taste for human women^^. Also, they appeared to their worshippers, sometimes even in a material way. Some of them crossed the world in another shape, like when Zeus transformed into a swan (to seduce a woman). They had an impact on human life, like when a goddess (was it Hera?) transformed Arachne in a spider just for being a better spinner than her. Or when they thrill heroes to go win a war or stuff like that. Or create a mythical being like the scylla, to which lots of men died trying to fight it.
Of course all this is just mythology. But in a personal note, I might add that them being more human makes them more sympathetic to me
If you read some greek mythology, you will see that the greek gods were very close to their worshippers. I think the most important thing to notice here is that they had human character traits.
Then look at the characteristics attributed to the judeo-christian deity. He was ascribed many very human characteristics. Stories abound of his jealousy, anger, his impregnation of a virgin, his slaughtering of his enemies.
Stories abound of his jealousy, anger, his impregnation of a virgin, his slaughtering of his enemies.
Oh.. well.. I believe that modern christians don't believe in that god anymore, but more in the untouchable unknown unimplied guy floating around somewhere that he has become. See what Mage said:
It seems to me as our knowledge advanced Gods presence God further and further away until he became invisible and not existing in reality.
At the time that the Greek and Roman gods were still being widely worshiped the judeo-christian god had many of the same characteristics as them. In fact, much of the judeo-christian mythology was adapted from other prominent religions of the period, especially from the pagans and polytheists.
In fact, much of the judeo-christian mythology was adapted from other prominent religions of the period, especially from the pagans and polytheists.
I know that. I just thought we were talking about the difference between modern christian god and ancient greek/roman/... gods. Sry if I didn't understand the context.
Had you never even conceived of, or been introduced to, the concept of the Judeo-Christian deity, would you have interpreted these experiences in the same way, and thus attributed them to a deity which you had no prior concept of?
That's possible but my earliest recollection of this 'calling' was while I was still in the crib, so I was maybe 2yrs old. Later, when I decided to be Baptized, my pastor put me to the test, I passed it on the spot at age 7, later that year, in the fall, I came close to dying of scarlet fever. The fever didn't take my life, just my eyesight which is hovering at 20-200.
Now, this has just occurred to me. These spiritual renewals usually precursor major upheavals in my life. I always ascribed these 'happenings' as the work of the Holy Spirit because whenever it occurs, I'm always alone. Conversely, whenever they occur something major is going to happen, later. Going back to the crib, later that year, during the summer, I was sick with a high fever and double earaches. This occurred while we were on vacation and mom rushed me home.
Sorry guys but this isn't going to be easily explained away since the more soul searching I do, the more Spiritually based my testimony becomes.
Sorry guys but this isn't going to be easily explained away since the more soul searching I do, the more Spiritually based my testimony becomes.
I don't look for it to be explained away. I am simply pointing out that there are definitely other, less supernatural explanations for your experiences. I myself had many 'experiences' when I was younger and living in my faith. However when I look back and apply critical thinking skills along with scientific knowledge to these instances I can find many other explanations for my experience other than 'god did it'.
We make inferences based on what we want to believe. When we don't have a positive understanding of a situation we fill it in with the best explanation available to us that is not contradictory to any preconceptions we may have. That's the natural response of the human mind. And as the saying goes, the simplest explanation is usually the right one. And 'god did it' is never the simplest explanation.
And 'god did it' is never the simplest explanation.
If you think about it 'God did it' is really the most complex explanation.
The christian view is NOT similar to the atheists view, it IS closed minded, and the only thing that was correct about your rant is that it is inaccurate.
The cristian side is close-minded about the scientific facts based on the material world, while the atheist side is close-minded about the spiritual emotions that are conveied to us by the cristian side.
What do you mean by 'materialistic'? Do you mean that if something is said to exist then it must have proof? Because that's my position.
Do I have proof on any emotion sensed by any of the people of the world? No. A psycholodgist has, but there is a reason that is not counted as proof in any court of law. But I can trust a person when he tells me he is sad, without having to get a PHD in psycholodgy.
Atheism covers a wide spectrum of people who are 'without a belief in deities'. Many of these are simply skeptical, some are questioning, some are opposed to the idea of deities altogether. The only thing that is constant is that we do not profess a belief.
As is any other big group of people, no matter how you define the group.
And that's not materialistic, it's scientific. Not the same.
As I mentioned above, a scientific find does not mean it is proven, even if it is not a theory.
And how is a scientific view 'cold, uninteresting, and unhelpful for the average person' as you said in your post? Science is very fascinating, extremely helpful, and not at all cold.
OK, it is intresting and helpfull. But once you get past the elementary part (whatever you learn in school), it gets rather dull. Mathematics quickly turns into some kinds of matrixes that have no use in the day-to-day activity and are extremely dull. Then it gets to a point it is now unhelpfull except to make mathematics even more complicated. Phisics gets detached from the phisical world in high school and slowly turns into a tipe of matematics and a few theories.
Chemistry gets into atomic energy and fibers and then gets preety unintresting. Biolodgy turns into chemistry. I could continue but you get the idea. Nasa, the leading point of science and technolodgy is at least 90% about calculations and computers.
It isn't based on emotion, but that's because emotions are fallible, inaccurate, typically misleading, and not constant from one to another.
Emotion is more importand than science. Science could generate suprise a few times, but after that it's about earning money and boredom.
while the atheist side is close-minded about the spiritual emotions that are conveied to us by the cristian side.
Requiring scientifically acceptable evidence prior to accepting a hypothesis as fact is NOT closed minded. It is adherence to the rules of the scientific process.
Do I have proof on any emotion sensed by any of the people of the world?
This is an individual, abstract experience and does not work as an analogy relating to something purported to exist within the physical realm.
Emotion is more importand than science. Science could generate suprise a few times, but after that it's about earning money and boredom.
Ok. Next time you want to flush your toilet, turn on the water, get food from the refrigerator, get in a car, get on the computer, put on glasses, wear sunscreen, use ANYTHING with plastics, remember that science gave you that, not emotion. When you need a blood transfusion, antibiotics, painkillers, when you want to take a photograph, shave your face, put on deodorant, wash with soap and shampoo. Yep, all science. Seems pretty meaningless when compared to emotion. Oh, and let's not forget all of the science that helps people cope with unsavory emotions like fear, hate, depression. Yes, science can even help with that too.
I agree, "God did it" isn't my first choice either.
To be more accurate, I use the term 'being led' because I have no preconception of what takes place between me and the Holy Spirit. This is like a TV or radio announcer that interrupts the ball game with a 'breaking news' flash. One minute I'm busy doing one thing and the next minute my focus is being placed on a spiritual level. Try as I may but whatever I was thinking or doing comes to an immediate halt.
I also don't sit and complain that "Satan did it" but I don't want to get off topic and spam.
But you do have a preconception. Your preconception is that such events are caused by, or contact with, your idea of the 'holy spirit' and either consciously or subconsciously you also have preconceived notions of what the 'holy spirit' is and some parameters for how such interactions would occur and what may result from such encounters if they were to occur.
I do now but not before the first occurrence. The most recent was a shocker because I was so removed from my previous faith that the Holy Spirit wasn't even a clear memory.
Tomerth, why all the references to Christianity being 'emotional'? Is this what the thread has led us to? I used to sit and laugh at Tammy Fey when she was married to Jim Bakker and they were still televising PTL, she would always start crying as if on cue whenever Jim was asking for mo' money. That's why a lot of us living in Charlotte, at the time, called the show "Pass The Loot" instead of Praise The Lord.
I do now but not before the first occurrence.
Obviously you either did have some sort of preconception for you to relate the experience as you did, or your mind has altered your memory of the event. Both are quite common in psychology.
The most recent was a shocker because I was so removed from my previous faith that the Holy Spirit wasn't even a clear memory.
Again, once that concept has been formed your mind can make connections to it, or even alter previous memories so that they coincide with current beliefs. Our brains are fascinating things capable of altering and creating ideas seemingly at whim, and often times our memories are not 100% accurate recollections of previous events.
I'm not telling you what to believe, and I'm not even denying that you had a supernatural experience. What I am saying is that based on your descriptions it sounds like other events which have been explained very accurately in natural means and are known to occur quite commonly in humans. Just think about it. Do some research, and apply critical thinking skills to your belief.
The best way to test your beliefs is to try to disprove them. This what we do with the scientific method. When we arrive at a conclusion our first task is to attempt to disprove our claim, or explain it by other means than what we put forth. We do this with everything else in our lives, why not with faith?
Emotion is more importand than science. Science could generate suprise a few times, but after that it's about earning money and boredom.
Emotion is very important, but it's stupid to say it's more important than science, like is saying the opposite. I don't see why you should confront the two things as being opposites, cuz they aren't.
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