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Gender Identity

Posted Mar 6, '14 at 7:35pm

Moegreche

Moegreche

3,096 posts

Moderator

unless the sole action of someone saying they are something dictates that they are in fact that something qualifies as objective.


This, I think, is your strongest point. Suppose I self-identify as Catholic yet I reject the notion that Jesus Christ existed and died for our sins. However I identify myself I am not, in fact, a Catholic. I would think the same objective standard would hold across various gender identities.

Overall, I share your general... befuddlement. Suppose a male self-identifies as a female. There must be reasons in support of this decision. If it's the sole fact that he prefers sexual activity with other males, then he is, as an objective matter of fact, a homosexual male. So the proper reason would be something like "Well, I just feel like a woman." But how does this person know what it feels like to be a woman? This is the point at which the notion breaks down. There seems to be no apt comparison on offer. Does he wish he had a vagina, or breasts? That can't be right, because there are individuals with vaginas and breasts who don't feel like women!

There's another problem, however, and it has to do with the whole political correctness of the situation. You wouldn't want to force a particular label on someone in this arena, as doing so could be viewed as a heinous act. And yet, I would imagine there are people who are genuinely confused about what they're feeling and these strict objective matters-of-fact might help them self-identify. After all, if I don't believe in Jesus then I know I'm not a Catholic!
 

Posted Mar 14, '14 at 2:06am

Pazx

Pazx

6,125 posts

If I say that my gender is tree, then what does that mean? I think it, I believe it, I am it! But I'm not a tree. I'm a human male who has thrust his opinion of what he thinks a tree is onto all of treedom


The following statement is problematic:

"If I say that my gender is female, then what does that mean? I think it, I believe it, I am it! But I'm not a female. I'm a human male who has thrust his opinion of what he thinks a female is onto all of treedom" (I'm not really sure what you meant by treedom lmao oops)
 

Posted Mar 14, '14 at 11:21am

FishPreferred

FishPreferred

1,564 posts

The following statement is problematic:

"If I say that my gender is female, then what does that mean? I think it, I believe it, I am it! But I'm not a female. I'm a human male who has thrust his opinion of what he thinks a female is onto all of treedom" (I'm not really sure what you meant by treedom lmao oops)


Alright, but in what way is this a problem?
 

Posted Mar 17, '14 at 6:30am

Pazx

Pazx

6,125 posts

If you believe you're female then you are female. You know there are actual real people who are like this, right? You realise that their phony-bologna "it's all in my head" made up genders can be legally and scientifically recognised?

Another problem: "I'm a human male who has thrust his opinion of what he thinks a female is onto all of treedom"

If "treedom" means humankind, then you are saying that these trans individuals are subjecting the entirety of humanity (or a particular gender) to their individual viewpoints, which we know is untrue because in our world many do not know of (or acknowledge) the existence and arguments of trans people. Additionally, there is no way to know that your perception of being [INSERT GENDER HERE] is the same as any other member of said gender.

 

Posted Mar 17, '14 at 11:48am

FishPreferred

FishPreferred

1,564 posts

If you believe you're female then you are female. You know there are actual real people who are like this, right? You realise that their phony-bologna "it's all in my head" made up genders can be legally and scientifically recognised?


No, yes, and wholly irrelevant, respectively.

If "treedom" means humankind, then you are saying that these trans individuals are subjecting the entirety of humanity (or a particular gender) to their individual viewpoints, which we know is untrue because in our world many do not know of (or acknowledge) the existence and arguments of trans people.


It means tree-kind, as in, if Sonatavarius chooses to self-identify as a tree, you have no right to say that he is not a tree.
 

Posted Mar 19, '14 at 2:54am

Getoffmydangle

Getoffmydangle

151 posts

Preface: There are a lot of different terms for different things in topics like this, and they change pretty frequently so keeping up with them can be difficult, even for people who are trying to be sensitive.

Here is a link with some answers

I wanted to clear this up: Gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation. If you identify as a man, that is your gender identity. Who you are attracted to is your sexual orientation (gay, straight, bi, etc.).

I certainly can't do a good job explaining why someone would identify as a different gender than their anatomy would suggest, but it is clearly a real phenomenon (medical and psychological professions recognize it) and it is not just something people do for attention or other superficial motives that have been suggested on this thread. If you meet anyone like this, or read about it, you learn that they can experience significant distress, discrimination, and alienation. Mostly, it doesn't hurt anyone for these peoples' wishes to be respected, and that is why I support them.

An example of where there is a real grey area is sports, as brought up already in this thread. For people who are biologically male, the testosterone they produce can lead to an unfair developmental advantage in terms of bone structure, musculature, and reflexes. So having them compete in women's sports after developing as a male into adulthood might not be fair.

 

Posted Mar 20, '14 at 4:12pm

Pazx

Pazx

6,125 posts

It means tree-kind, as in, if Sonatavarius chooses to self-identify as a tree, you have no right to say that he is not a tree.


Then you have no right to tell someone she isn't female.

[quote]If you believe you're female then you are female.


No,[/quote]

Related: sign this petition, there's only a day and a bit left and it requires 80,000 more signatures. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/allow-all-people-identifying-transgender-change-their-legal-gender/yhJDRqvQ
 

Posted Mar 20, '14 at 7:03pm

FishPreferred

FishPreferred

1,564 posts

Then you have no right to tell someone she isn't female.


Sorry, but this isn't transferrable. I do not expect the world to comply with my ideology. If yours is to be accepted, all must be accepted, and you revoke your right to challenge any other.
 

Posted Mar 20, '14 at 7:08pm

Kasic

Kasic

5,740 posts

Sorry, but this isn't transferrable. I do not expect the world to comply with my ideology. If yours is to be accepted, all must be accepted, and you revoke your right to challenge any other.


To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing about here, but my take on it is this: You cannot tell someone what they think they think they are. A person might consider themselves a tree, and you cannot say that they don't think of themselves that way, even if they are not actually a tree.

Does it really matter though? I don't care what anyone considers themselves as long as they aren't hurting anyone. If you identify with a tree, good for you - I don't care. If you told me you thought you were a tree, I'd probably ask why and maybe give you a questioning look, but I wouldn't pursue the topic further and it wouldn't affect how I treated you.

I think everyone is getting way too caught up in terminology anyways.
 

Posted Mar 20, '14 at 7:32pm

FishPreferred

FishPreferred

1,564 posts

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing about here, but my take on it is this: You cannot tell someone what they think they think they are. A person might consider themselves a tree, and you cannot say that they don't think of themselves that way, even if they are not actually a tree.


I am arguing that an individual cannot impose its own ideology upon others and is not justified in demanding that others comply with it. People are free to have their own beliefs, not to dictate the beliefs of others.
 
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