ForumsWEPRGender Identity

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pangtongshu
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pangtongshu
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I feel like there should be a thread about such a topic, and now there is one.

What are your thoughts on Gender Identity?
[Note: Gender =/= sex]

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Pazx
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Pazx
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If I say that my gender is tree, then what does that mean? I think it, I believe it, I am it! But I'm not a tree. I'm a human male who has thrust his opinion of what he thinks a tree is onto all of treedom


The following statement is problematic:

"If I say that my gender is female, then what does that mean? I think it, I believe it, I am it! But I'm not a female. I'm a human male who has thrust his opinion of what he thinks a female is onto all of treedom" (I'm not really sure what you meant by treedom lmao oops)
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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The following statement is problematic:

"If I say that my gender is female, then what does that mean? I think it, I believe it, I am it! But I'm not a female. I'm a human male who has thrust his opinion of what he thinks a female is onto all of treedom" (I'm not really sure what you meant by treedom lmao oops)


Alright, but in what way is this a problem?
Pazx
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Pazx
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If you believe you're female then you are female. You know there are actual real people who are like this, right? You realise that their phony-bologna "it's all in my head" made up genders can be legally and scientifically recognised?

Another problem: "I'm a human male who has thrust his opinion of what he thinks a female is onto all of treedom"

If "treedom" means humankind, then you are saying that these trans individuals are subjecting the entirety of humanity (or a particular gender) to their individual viewpoints, which we know is untrue because in our world many do not know of (or acknowledge) the existence and arguments of trans people. Additionally, there is no way to know that your perception of being [INSERT GENDER HERE] is the same as any other member of said gender.

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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If you believe you're female then you are female. You know there are actual real people who are like this, right? You realise that their phony-bologna "it's all in my head" made up genders can be legally and scientifically recognised?


No, yes, and wholly irrelevant, respectively.

If "treedom" means humankind, then you are saying that these trans individuals are subjecting the entirety of humanity (or a particular gender) to their individual viewpoints, which we know is untrue because in our world many do not know of (or acknowledge) the existence and arguments of trans people.


It means tree-kind, as in, if Sonatavarius chooses to self-identify as a tree, you have no right to say that he is not a tree.
Getoffmydangle
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Getoffmydangle
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Preface: There are a lot of different terms for different things in topics like this, and they change pretty frequently so keeping up with them can be difficult, even for people who are trying to be sensitive.

Here is a link with some answers

I wanted to clear this up: Gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation. If you identify as a man, that is your gender identity. Who you are attracted to is your sexual orientation (gay, straight, bi, etc.).

I certainly can't do a good job explaining why someone would identify as a different gender than their anatomy would suggest, but it is clearly a real phenomenon (medical and psychological professions recognize it) and it is not just something people do for attention or other superficial motives that have been suggested on this thread. If you meet anyone like this, or read about it, you learn that they can experience significant distress, discrimination, and alienation. Mostly, it doesn't hurt anyone for these peoples' wishes to be respected, and that is why I support them.

An example of where there is a real grey area is sports, as brought up already in this thread. For people who are biologically male, the testosterone they produce can lead to an unfair developmental advantage in terms of bone structure, musculature, and reflexes. So having them compete in women's sports after developing as a male into adulthood might not be fair.

Pazx
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Pazx
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It means tree-kind, as in, if Sonatavarius chooses to self-identify as a tree, you have no right to say that he is not a tree.


Then you have no right to tell someone she isn't female.

[quote]If you believe you're female then you are female.


No,[/quote]

Related: sign this petition, there's only a day and a bit left and it requires 80,000 more signatures. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/allow-all-people-identifying-transgender-change-their-legal-gender/yhJDRqvQ
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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Then you have no right to tell someone she isn't female.


Sorry, but this isn't transferrable. I do not expect the world to comply with my ideology. If yours is to be accepted, all must be accepted, and you revoke your right to challenge any other.
Kasic
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Kasic
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Sorry, but this isn't transferrable. I do not expect the world to comply with my ideology. If yours is to be accepted, all must be accepted, and you revoke your right to challenge any other.


To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing about here, but my take on it is this: You cannot tell someone what they think they think they are. A person might consider themselves a tree, and you cannot say that they don't think of themselves that way, even if they are not actually a tree.

Does it really matter though? I don't care what anyone considers themselves as long as they aren't hurting anyone. If you identify with a tree, good for you - I don't care. If you told me you thought you were a tree, I'd probably ask why and maybe give you a questioning look, but I wouldn't pursue the topic further and it wouldn't affect how I treated you.

I think everyone is getting way too caught up in terminology anyways.
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing about here, but my take on it is this: You cannot tell someone what they think they think they are. A person might consider themselves a tree, and you cannot say that they don't think of themselves that way, even if they are not actually a tree.


I am arguing that an individual cannot impose its own ideology upon others and is not justified in demanding that others comply with it. People are free to have their own beliefs, not to dictate the beliefs of others.
Pazx
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Pazx
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What ideology has been imposed upon others, and by whom?

Pazx
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Pazx
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Updated petition: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/legally-recognize-non-binary-genders/j5KvDVvh

Salvidian
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Salvidian
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I think everyone is getting way too caught up in terminology anyways.


Agreed. In what real-world situation does it matter what specific gender you are, aside from male, female and other? Nitpicking seems unnecessary.
Zophia
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First of all, the tree comparison.
You can not have the gender tree. Trees are a different species (many species, even). You cannot have the gender dog either, because again, different species. Same thing goes for objects.

If a part of your identity is that you genuinely believe that you are something other than human, you can probably be categorized as a type of otherkin. (Wikipedia article - wikipedia is not the best source on the topic but this is not hugely important to my point.)

Second of all, the "I believe I am a catholic but I don't believe in Jesus"... Erm. Then why on Earth would you say you're catholic? What would your reasoning be for wanting to be considered a catholic? This is not a very linear analogy and sounds more like a comparison of what it's like to be closeted (whether in a sexual orientation or a gender identity context) and pretending to be something you aren't to the point where you believe it yourself than it does to wanting to express yourself and live a happier life (which is generally the point of people transitioning).

So.
I've typed up a really long post of trans info. I'm not entirely sure it fits the flow of this thread and may post it as a separate thread because this one got off to an ... uninformed start.

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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You can not have the gender tree. Trees are a different species (many species, even). You cannot have the gender dog either, because again, different species. Same thing goes for objects.


You could make up a gender role and call it "tree" or "dog". The fact remains that if one such ideology is accepted, the rest must also be accepted, regardless of how absurd or contrary to the evidence they may be.

Second of all, the "I believe I am a catholic but I don't believe in Jesus"... Erm. Then why on Earth would you say you're catholic? What would your reasoning be for wanting to be considered a catholic?


The reason behind it is irrelevant, but someone who was raised believing that "catholic" means something else could easily make such a claim and wish to be identified as a catholic.
Zophia
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Zophia
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You could make up a gender role and call it "tree" or "dog". The fact remains that if one such ideology is accepted, the rest must also be accepted, regardless of how absurd or contrary to the evidence they may be.

You cannot arbitrarily make up a new gender role. Society could eventually come to have more than two accepted gender categories, but unless the majority of the population suddenly decided that tree is on the gender spectrum, it would not be.
Some cultures do or did in the past have more than two, actually, and western society's gender roles are much more washed out nowadays than they have been - this makes some room for non-binary identities.

Anyway, the lack of two completely distinct boxes does not mean you can suddenly throw "tree" in as a gender identity (that's like saying allowing gay marriage will lead to people marrying their dogs).

If you really wanted to, though, you could probably say you feel like a tree as an analogy for a bigendered identity. I'd feel pretty sorry for anyone who genuinely feels like their reproductive organs should literally be flowers, though. That's gotta be stressful, and as this is not, in fact, human anatomy, I would still sort that sort of identity under otherkin.

The reason behind it is irrelevant, but someone who was raised believing that "catholic" means something else could easily make such a claim and wish to be identified as a catholic.

The reason is not irrelevant.

"Catholic" is a label for a religious belief. Like pretty much all other labels, you generally only want to take them on when they're mostly accurate. If you think you've been raised catholic but have actually just been eating crucifix shaped scones for breakfast every sunday because this is your mum's idea of religion, you will probably assume that telling other people that you are catholic lets them know of your scone ritual.

Once someone points out that this is not, in fact, what most people understand "catholic" to mean, you should probably stop using the label to express your like of scones. You could also find like minded people and try to change the meaning of what "catholic" can be to include consumers of crucifix shaped scones. If the main body of people who identify with the label "catholic" cannot agree with this inclusion, you will then probably be better off creating a new label.

Gender roles are subject to a lot of "let's change what it means to be a real man/woman". The meaning of widely acknowledged labels change slowly. New ones appear to define subsets. It's completely fair to want a label to include something it hasn't previously, but it will not magically become the norm and depending on the thing in question, it may not be fair to expect others to accept it.
(Crucifix scone consumption? Unlikely. Wanting to be able to express the social gender you fit into without being ridiculed for it? Currently unlikely, actually, but I really do hope society eventually accepts it.)

As a bonus, I went and made that post a thread.
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