ForumsWEPRHow can we fix Israel/Palestine?

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09philj
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09philj
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This probably sounds insane, but what if a treaty was created forbidding any state owning an part of Jerusalem, and putting the whole thing under the control of a neutral party? It would give the Israelis and Palestinians a common enemy at least. Also, the opposing parties need to get a life, put aside their differences and show a willingness to negotiate, because frankly squabbling over the land little children makes outside observers less inclined to help.

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MacII
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How can we fix Israel/Palestine?


Not on this board, we won't.

In my never-so humble opinion.
thebluerabbit
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This probably sounds insane, but what if a treaty was created forbidding any state owning an part of Jerusalem, and putting the whole thing under the control of a neutral party? It would give the Israelis and Palestinians a common enemy at least.


would you want part of your country to be on control of another? i also doubt there really is a 100% nuetral country. besides, having a common enemy wont really solve things.

and the worst: i actually believe that if jerusalem was in control of another country there would be even more hatred to whom (used correctly) it should belong.

besides, i doubt jerusalem is the only thing the middle east is so messed up because isnt it? :P
partydevil
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maybe all they need is a really good peace anthem.

nichodemus
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This probably sounds insane, but what if a treaty was created forbidding any state owning an part of Jerusalem, and putting the whole thing under the control of a neutral party? It would give the Israelis and Palestinians a common enemy at least. Also, the opposing parties need to get a life, put aside their differences and show a willingness to negotiate, because frankly squabbling over the land little children makes outside observers less inclined to help.


I see multiple difficulties with this. The premise lies on the presumption that upon the control of Jerusalem by a neutral party, all other differences between the warring parties will cease. This is, logically, not going to happen.

Secondly, I would say, many of the groups, in particular the more zealous Jewish factions, and the more hardline Palestinian ones, would rather that observers leave. They don't want help from outside, other than aid and contributions. They want to wield their independence.

Thirdly, historically, they've tried creating internationally free cities, like Danzig, but they failed, for no other reason than the fact that such a city-state would find it hard to survive, especially if it was originally part of a larger state.
09philj
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09philj
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This probably sounds insane, but what if a treaty was created forbidding any state owning an part of Jerusalem, and putting the whole thing under the control of a neutral party


Did I write this rubbish? Sorry.

Question: why do the Israelis seem determined to paint themselves as villains to outsiders?
nichodemus
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Question: why do the Israelis seem determined to paint themselves as villains to outsiders?


Well, I would blame the media mostly. There have always been oscillations in opinions; at the beginning, I would say that Israelis have had the most part of the sympathy, when they were a nascent state surrounded by hostile powers. Now, after 3 short, devastating knockout wars, they're no longer viewed as David, but Goliath, hence the volte face. We have to look at it from the Israeli point of view. They're still surrounded by larger neighbours, they have much sectarian violence within their state (Not to mention Syria now), and around them, and they have had a long history of persecution behind them. From their point of view, they're just doing what they deem best for their survival. Whether they look like villains or not, is down to the media.
tomertheking
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Not on this board, we won't.

In my never-so humble opinion.


I personally think that there is no solution that both parties would agree to.

...owning an part of Jerusalem, and putting the whole thing under the control of a neutral party?


Been there, done that. The Palestinians didn't like it.

Also, the opposing parties need to get a life, put aside their differences and show a willingness to negotiate, because frankly squabbling over the land little children makes outside observers less inclined to help.


You talk like they haven't

Question: why do the Israelis seem determined to paint themselves as villains to outsiders?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Israel_Recognition.svg

This is an image of countries that do not recognize Israel as a state. You can imagine the amount of friendly feelings they have toward the country. Also, here is the list of countries that have been at war with Israel:
Egypt
Syria
Jordan
Lebanon
Saudi Arabia
Iraq
Yemen
Pakistan
Sudan
Soviet Union
Algeria
Kuwait
Libya
Morocco
Pakistan
Tunisia
Algeria
Cuba
Morocco
North Korea
Of this list, only two have signed peace agreements. (and the Soviet union has since broken up) That still leaves with a ****load of countries trying to kill you.

The truth is that Israel fears war like the Devil, will do anything to stop it, and that includes some things that you would disagree with. If you have ideas how not to do it and still survive, you are welcome to state them.

Well, I would blame the media mostly. There have always been oscillations in opinions; at the beginning, I would say that Israelis have had the most part of the sympathy, when they were a nascent state surrounded by hostile powers. Now, after 3 short, devastating knockout wars, they're no longer viewed as David, but Goliath, hence the volte face. We have to look at it from the Israeli point of view. They're still surrounded by larger neighbours, they have much sectarian violence within their state (Not to mention Syria now), and around them, and they have had a long history of persecution behind them. From their point of view, they're just doing what they deem best for their survival. Whether they look like villains or not, is down to the media.


Basically what I was trying to say.

Secondly, I would say, many of the groups, in particular the more zealous Jewish factions, and the more hardline Palestinian ones, would rather that observers leave. They don't want help from outside, other than aid and contributions. They want to wield their independence.


For Americans that broke away from an empire because it didn't want to pay taxes, many have difficulty grasping this idea.

The Palestinians are a poor people that got kicked out of every country they tied to get into and can't find a homeland where to live, and Israel is scared ****less of giving away the tiny strategic defense they have. No party can afford to give up the little it has to come to a two-state solution, and nobody wants a one-state solution either.
danielo
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Another big problme is the "arab two faces". One day its Abu-Mazen and his suited friends, the next its Hammas with AK on the shoulder and a kid on there back. Its like trying to negotiate a seasonal fashion.
Even so, I belive that if a steong enough Palestinian group will negotiate with Israel with rhe real intention to do so, we can do great things.

Another problme is that they dont let us trust them. Every day or two a member of their negotiation team threat to wirhdraw. Today another claim that the speaks will continue up to the 9 months they promissed.

What bother us Israelis the most is the fact that they show that they hate us yet negotiate. In Israel, if a minister willndare ro say something racist, he will get so much heat he will have to cool down for a while. Meanwhile, on the other side of the fence, They use Hitler in school books as a hero character.
Even a poster for eco day show kids clean and a big car with david star on it throw garbage. So if there will be peace, then with who it will be? A generation that belive we are the devil?

09philj
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Things like this http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/3/11/1299874580764/Israeli-separation-wall-i-007.jpg and this don't help the image of the Israelis though.

danielo
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Do you know what this thing is?

danielo
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Pressed sent by accident...

This is the "Counter wall". After the seconde Intifada, when Terrorist just moved at will all over Israel suicide bombing for fun, Israel decided to guard its border.
And i dont know about you, i prefer a ukgly wall over the fear i remmeber i had to drive in a buss or eat in a caffee. Since the finishing of the wall there were no suicide bombs anymore.

09philj
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09philj
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I know what it's for, but that's not the point. The point is that if you build a huge concrete wall, people will have preconceived notions of what a wall like that is for.

There was also meant to be an image of a doobi, but it didn't come out. Yes I know what a doobi is for. But many people have other ideas...

danielo
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Its funny,because when "these peoples" hear about bad things the underdog do, thwy claim that "you cant judge them".

This is the problme. All these smuggish europeans hipsters who read thenews in their favoritw coffee shop, and read about something that happen here in Israel and create "more news" in their heads. Ive talked to so many peoples who just madr up facts because "thats how they felt that going on", some claiming that every seconde 8 peoples die in gaza, that we run on the roads and just hunt them, just because they read that a palestinian man have died. You do know that when these things happen, they are on the news, and its not a "normal situation"?

Thats what make me mad. Its like the european left wingers just love to hug the underdog and are blinded by their hipserity. They find what theu want and ignore what they want.

So sure, this wall dont look good. But remind me when your neighborse sneaked into your cities and stabbed to death old peoples? When night clubs got blown up by female suiciders?! When a little girl and her mother get killed by a man with an axe, aftet he already killed 2 peoples, just to get free 10 years latet as a "gift", just to begin the negotiating?

MacII
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these smuggish europeans hipsters


the european left wingers


Thanks. You're speaking to one, mind.

Another problme is that they dont let us trust them.


Methinks when we start designating the Other as a "they," there is already a problem going on.

Anyways and as I said already: I see absolutely no reason to assume this issue will be resolved on ArmorGames, of all places.
09philj
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I see absolutely no reason to assume this issue will be resolved on ArmorGames, of all places.

Doesn't mean we can't talk about it and think about the issues.

Its like the european [sic] left wingers just love to hug the underdog

I'd say it's more to do with the whole thing being a bit odd and not quite right. From my perspective, (which could be wrong of course. I'm open to correction) as far as I can tell, in 1947 there was a large debate on how to fairly allow the Jews to have the right to live in the holy land, or have a state of their own, and concluded with the founding of a country where the inhabitants at the time were forced out and replaced with a Jewish majority who could essentially do whatever they wanted and has led to decades of civil unrest. Therefore, we can mostly square the blame for the whole fiasco on the person/people in the UN who made the final decision as to whether this was good idea.
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