ForumsWEPRFeminism: Is it really celebrated?

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Jacen96
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Jacen96
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EDIT: I didn't post this to talk about Frozen guys (ok, maybe a little), but more to discuss the overall topic of Feminism as represented in media.

Ok, so I don't know if this is the wrong forum, so, here we go.

I was browsing the internet for a while and googled "Frozen" just for the hell of it. I then found a Time article, which mentioned "7 reasons frozen dominates your life" (or something like that), which contained a section in the last reason talking about the debate over whether or not the feminist themes in the movie are worth celebrating.

Now, since I first watched the movie ~1.5 months ago, I've held the opinion that the portrayal of the MALE characters in comparison to the FEMALE characters was slightly sexist. As honest trailers puts it "it teaches girls everywhere, they don't need a prince to rescue them, because every guy is a disgusting loner, greedy murderer, and lying power-hungry sociopath" (also, Wandering Oaken was somewhat of a simpleton, but that's excusable). I do feel that the characterization (or lack of it) was largely responsible for this, and the film could have benefited from a slightly longer run-time.

Anyway, back to the original topic. When I saw these links, I decided to check them out and see if other people shared similar views. I ended up reading (in full) this article, which is basically an in-depth breakdown of why Frozen shouldn't be hailed as a feminist beacon.

Anyway, I'm kind of tired right now, but the points seem well-written and defended logically, so I ask you. Do you think that feminism can be inserted into situations it doesn't fit just to profit? Do you think that people grasp at straws just to make themselves appear better than others? (another point on this, wandering oaken is seen as homosexual because of the view of his family including one large male three definite children, and one petite character who may or may not be his wife) Is media really the beacon of hope we all think it is?

This is Darth Caedus, your friendly neighborhood lurker, and I'll be back tomorrow to hear your thoughts and formulate my own.

~~~Darth Caedus

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ellock
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ellock
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Do you think that feminism can be inserted into situations it doesn't fit just to profit? Do you think that people grasp at straws just to make themselves appear better than others?

Pft! Can and ARE inserted into anything. I can't tell you how sick I am of hearing people babble on about how Frozen is so revolutionary and completely pro women and amazing yada yada yada. If I hear one more person singing the praise song "let it go" like it is there life motto, I will violently attack them until they can not longer belittle the human race by spewing their nonsense.
1) Frozen is not about feminist movements OR gay rights. It is a childrens movie, stop reading into it so much.
2) Feminism will probably still use it as a motto; as will the gay community. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't open your mouth and sing Let it go in my vicinity. I have a 6 year old sister, I hear it about 30 times a day (not kidding).
3) That little family is not homosexual... it is too taboo of a topic still and disney would not put that in their movies. Could you imagine the uproar? People freaked when Katy Perry's background dancer wore a necklace that said "allah"... an openly gay couple in a disney movie would hospitalize some people.
4) I agree that this movie does portray men in an interesting light, but I think that is refreshing from the heroic ones we always see in those movies. So I don't have a problem with it.
5) For the love of God, Elsa is not LESBIAN! Just because she does not want a prince does not automatically make her lesbian. This is not a anti-gay/lesbian post, it is just illogical to assume someone is one sexuality just because they don't have a boyfriend. Under that logic, I would be Asexual because I have never been in a romantic relationship... when in reality I think it is stupid to force myself into one, so I wait. Elsa could just not want a BF at that time, or she could be lesbian (almost positive she isn't because this is a disney movie, but to each his own)

That is my two cents.
Jacen96
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Jacen96
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I dislike your comment on "Let it Go", it is more than just a song about feminism and homosexuality (in fact, I think defining it in just those two areas is wrong), rather it represents the idea that you should be yourself, and taken separate from the movie, is a powerful message. (in the movie, its about Elsa running away from her problems again).

The rest I kinda agree on, this article actually makes a lot of logical sense.

p.s. I prefer to let em burn

~~~Darth Caedus

Kennethhartanto
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I feel that everyone is really overacting on a simple child's movie. but in my opinion, i like Frozen because it has a pretty nice graphics and music. It has NOTHING to do with lesbian and homosexuality, people!

nichodemus
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It doesn't matter that it was never intended to be such a symbol, so long as enough people take it to be vociferously, and eventually the mindset entrenches itself.

Anyway here, take a breather.

roydotor2000
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Well, some people whine for a hidden agenda like gaining money by complaining that some games are misogynistic.

Btw, if you are wondering that i wasn't active for a long time because i got screwed really bad in the wwIII theory debate. It felt like this "Oh, you don't know nothing! You should shut up."

roydotor2000
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I dislike your comment on "Let it Go", it is more than just a song about feminism and homosexuality (in fact, I think defining it in just those two areas is wrong), rather it represents the idea that you should be yourself, and taken separate from the movie, is a powerful message. (in the movie, its about Elsa running away from her problems again).


Like break your vow and be a hypocrite?
Jacen96
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Jacen96
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Like break your vow and be a hypocrite?
What?

Are you saying I am being a hypocrite? Because a song can have multiple meanings depending on context.

Following the song means being a hypocrite? Not at all, its about ignoring the prejudices and expectations of others and letting it go and being yourself.

~~~Darth Caedus
roydotor2000
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roydotor2000
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Are you saying I am being a hypocrite?


Not you! I was referring to Elsa, because she said she won't reveal her powers until she got pushed by her, well, darn sister.
Kennethhartanto
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Like break your vow and be a hypocrite?


this comment clearly implied who's the hypocrite, which is Jacen. you should add more sentences that explain who the hypocrite is, so no one got the wrong idea.

Not you! I was referring to Elsa, because she said she won't reveal her powers until she got pushed by her, well, darn sister.


In my opinion, what the director wanted to express is being free from the clutches of civilization. Which is not hypocritical if you think what would an "outcast" that are isolated from others like 3 years and then in a few days get to rule a kingdom which once isolated her
roydotor2000
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roydotor2000
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this comment clearly implied who's the hypocrite, which is Jacen. you should add more sentences that explain who the hypocrite is, so no one got the wrong idea.


Thanks for the tip.
MoonFairy
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That article honestly sounds like a load of bull. I can't really enjoy people or opinions that look so far into things that really don't need it, and if you spend the whole time in the movie theater being a cynical ***, then yeah, you probably won't enjoy the movie.

First off, one of the huge points of Frozen was that true love doesn't have to be in a different person of whatever gender you choose, but family. She truly loves her sister, that's why she goes out to find her and makes all of those stupid decisions such as going into the cold without a coat and basically every other reason that Dani Coleman gives. That is the real reason that any feminist or what have you would love Frozen so much. Is because there isn't a traditional male-female love that the story is completely centered around.

Coleman argues pretty well, by ignoring the simple things and instead highlighting, reiterating, and again highlighting stupid points. Such as those movies that feature an actual wedding. There doesn't need to be a part of the movie that contains a wedding for any idiot to figure out they are in love. That is why Frozen was so revolutionary, is because it was more about sisterly love than romantic love.

Instead of actually tearing apart that chick's opinion, I'd like to address this :

As honest trailers puts it "it teaches girls everywhere, they don't need a prince to rescue them, because every guy is a disgusting loner, greedy murderer, and lying power-hungry sociopath"

No. Just no. No little girl is going to watch that movie and think "Oh my god I'm never falling in love because guys are all disgusting loners, greedy murderers, and lying power-hungry sociopaths." This is defending males when it wasn't even being addressed. That's like reverse racism and all of that mess which is just silly. The movie isn't attacking males at all. Did you not understand that Anna and the blonde dude with the reindeer wind up together? If anything it is still saying that the right guy will be there for you and defend you and try to save you etc etc. Just because the main idea isn't about a dude and a gal falling in love doesn't mean that it's teaching girls that men are terrible.

Feminism has such a bad light on it, and it's frowned upon if you identify as a feminist. I don't know what the real topic was or what was added/removed from the OP, because it was edited, but feel free to stimulate conversation and debate to further discuss feminism and or Frozen.

I apologize if this post isn't thought out very well, but it's 3am and I am tired. With that, I am goin to bed.
Jacen96
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Don't worry, all I did was bold some stuff because the responses were not what I was asking for.

No. Just no. No little girl is going to watch that movie and think "Oh my god I'm never falling in love because guys are all disgusting loners, greedy murderers, and lying power-hungry sociopaths." This is defending males when it wasn't even being addressed. That's like reverse racism and all of that mess which is just silly. The movie isn't attacking males at all. Did you not understand that Anna and the blonde dude with the reindeer wind up together? If anything it is still saying that the right guy will be there for you and defend you and try to save you etc etc. Just because the main idea isn't about a dude and a gal falling in love doesn't mean that it's teaching girls that men are terrible.
Yes, I know Anna and Kristoff end up together, but still.

In the movie proper, the attitudes and mannerisms (are those the right words?) of the male characters are all more negative when compared to the attitudes and mannerisms of the female characters. Hell, the whole thing starts because 2 males are stupid, one gives bad advice and the other horribly misinterprets the bad advice. (Of course, none of the conflict would have happened if Flynn hadn't saved Rapunzel, but that's a minor thing kappa).

But think about it.
Kristoff is a loner with no interest in human interaction (more character development could have helped alleviate this, he still fears like he doesn't care that much for society at the end, just Anna)
The Duke is a greedy s.o.b. who is basically a racist.
Hans had a shattered childhood involving 12 horrible brothers leading him to be a power-hungry manipulative *******.
Oaken is a simpleton
Kai is just a servant who shows up when needed and hates the Duke.

Compared to
Elsa, a manic-depressive who through the POWER OF LOVE learns to control abilities that pretty much make her a god.
Anna, a girl who has no idea what she is doing yet somehow manages to save the world, character development helps a little, but not much.

I suppose my biggest gripe with the movie is that it is WAY too short for how much they tried to fit in. I feel like an extra half hour would've eliminated my minor complaints, and made the movie even better.

tl;dr basically ranting about the lack of character development and the need for the movie to be longer.

~~~Darth Caedus
MoonFairy
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MoonFairy
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tl;dr basically ranting about the lack of character development and the need for the movie to be longer.

Okay but you explicitly stated that this thread is about Feminism, not the movie Frozen and your problems with it. I hate to be a hard *** here, but I'm trying to keep this worthy of remaining in the WEPR.

In the movie proper, the attitudes and mannerisms (are those the right words?) of the male characters are all more negative when compared to the attitudes and mannerisms of the female characters.

So because this movie focuses on negative aspects of a male more than they do the negative aspects of a female, it's obviously a ****ty movie? If that isn't what you're saying, then please clarify your opinion.

Kristoff is a loner with no interest in human interaction (more character development could have helped alleviate this, he still fears like he doesn't care that much for society at the end, just Anna)

Wow a male with a personal problem. I didn't know that they weren't allowed to be anything less that Prince Charming.

Again just because the movie doesn't glorify the male idea, and instead focuses on a female character does NOT mean that it is attacking the idea of males, or is unfair.
09philj
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09philj
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On the surface, Frozen is fluffy rubbish. Analysed more closely, it's fluffy rubbish populated entirely by mentally ill people. End of. Can we please move onto something of substance?

Jacen96
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Jacen96
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I'm sorry, I was ranting.

But, my whole point (I suppose) is that sometimes feminism goes way too far. Sometimes instead of an extremely glorified patriarchy thingy situation stuff we get an extremely glorified matriarchy thing situation stuff. The point I'm think the article is trying to make isn't that Frozen is a bad movie (I think its a great movie, but you apparently need to hone your reading skills) but that it is being falsely hailed as a symbol of equality. It instead portrays a kingdom where women solve anything and men either are useless at fixing stuff or cause the problem in the first place.

tl;dr some things don't deserve to be hailed the way they are, feminism sometimes goes too far.

~~~Darth Caedus

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