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The Israel and Palestine War

Posted Aug 8, '14 at 10:36am

HahiHa

HahiHa

5,617 posts

Knight

And so I ask you, what would you do in their place? Leave the terrorists to be and let them firing rockets without any care in the world? To do so sends a message to Hamas that Israel cannot do anything in return and they are free to hurt Israel as they please. In my view, this is unacceptable.

Why do you people always have to assume we want you to sit in a corner and die just because we criticise your methods? It gets annoying, really.
Do what 09philj already proposed, send troops, special forces to dismantle the firing bases with accuracy and efficiency. It's simple, really. By answering brutality with brutality, you are escalating the situation, next to doing exactly what the Hamas wants you to do.

Also it is funny how previously danielo was refusing to call it a war, and now everyone is protecting Israels actions by saying "war absolves every crime". There's something called a war crime. I totally support that Israel defends itself, that is why they have the Iron Dome and why they had to send soldiers to collapse the tunnels. But the way the soldiers acted (I've heard stories of people's homes being destroyed while Israelian soldiers looked for tunnels in vain) and the shooting of rocket is inexcusable.
 

Posted Aug 8, '14 at 8:54pm

Blkasp

Blkasp

1,356 posts

Do what 09philj already proposed, send troops, special forces to dismantle the firing bases with accuracy and efficiency. It's simple, really. By answering brutality with brutality, you are escalating the situation, next to doing exactly what the Hamas wants you to do.


So what you are suggesting is to send Infantry assaults on every single rocket firing zone (correct me if I am wrong)?
In a good case, this would be the perfect solution although it is logistically impossible. Over 3000 rockets have been fired at Israel just during Operation Protective Edge and organising infantry for a single attack takes hell of a long enough time, let alone 3000 attacks. Also, don't forget how deep some of the rockets are launched from in Gaza and just trying to get soldiers near them would be extremely risky.

The only way to seriously implement this method would be a proper invasion and occupation of Gaza, and then work from that to locate and destroy rocket caches, launch sites etc. (although think of the outcry for doing this...) Inserting small groups of special forces is not easy, let alone into a massive urban sprawl such as Gaza.

What do you think is an acceptable scale for Israeli action in Gaza? Would you accept a temporary occupation of Gaza for the purpose of dismantling and destroying rocket sites etc.?

Also it is funny how previously danielo was refusing to call it a war, and now everyone is protecting Israels actions by saying "war absolves every crime". There's something called a war crime.


Yes there are war crimes, and I have yet to see Israel charged for war crimes in The International Court of Justice.

(I've heard stories of people's homes being destroyed while Israelian soldiers looked for tunnels in vain)

Yes, I agree this is disgusting, these groups or individuals need to be punished for their actions although they do not reflect the majority of the IDF, just as the individual American Soldiers who urinated on dead Taliban shouldn't reflect the American Forces.
 

Posted Aug 9, '14 at 9:35am

09philj

09philj

2,535 posts

Yes there are war crimes, and I have yet to see Israel charged for war crimes in The International Court of Justice.


1. Everyone is afraid of looking like an anti semite.
2. The US generally backs Israel, and most countries want to be on the side of the US.
3. It would be difficult to pin down everyone responsible.
 

Posted Aug 13, '14 at 12:03am

Blkasp

Blkasp

1,356 posts

And 4. Hamas would have to be charged for War Crimes as well.

 

Posted Aug 15, '14 at 9:15am

danielo

danielo

1,770 posts

You talk about "war crimes" as if Israel executed peopels on the streets. Israel 'crimes' talk about fighting in urban area.

hamas know "the rules". They know what the UN think war rues are, so they use it against us. If they shoot rockets from a building, what should we do? keep waiting like we did for the last 14 years?

All this "war crime investigation" just seem as an excuse for known Israeli haters to show themselves as legit lawyers. Peopels who decline to call hamas a terror group, but are so eager to accept anything Hamas sell as legit information are not a netural judges. How come no one investigated Germany activity in Afganistan? Or Netherland in Serbia {oh wow. after 20 years they find out that "some Netherland troops did some bad thing. But thats it. No global riots, no muslims throwing molotov ****tails on drug stores}.

long story short - i dont want to sound like a butthurt or a crybaby, but how is that, that only when Israel dare to do anything, from building an hospital to expanding a city, there are global cry, but when there is a suicide bombing/rocket fire/ murdure of kids, the world say something like "both of you need to stop"?

UK say it will stop selling wepones to Israel. USA do the same. And later you ask yourself "why peoples in Israel get more and more anti-europe and anti-USA over the time?". Its like you try to force us to join Russia and China. Is that the UN goal? To make us join the "bad guys" so you will be able to attack us without feeling bad?

 

Posted Aug 15, '14 at 10:32am

09philj

09philj

2,535 posts

If it were possible, I would simply dissolve Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank, along with all of their governments, and start again, with somebody neutral writing a new constitution that cannot be perceived to be biased to any party, and then giving those who disagree the opportunity to secede from the new state and found their own, on the condition that the two states take no action against each other. This is, of course never going to happen, but playing the blame game (Answer: It was everyone) is not going to fix anything, because no-one will admit their guilt until everybody else does.

 

Posted Aug 17, '14 at 5:07am

danielo

danielo

1,770 posts

@09philj Abd again we go with the arrogance. Israel and tge palestunians are not small kids which need guidness. Israel is a well organized state. I dont underarand why you keep blaming us for being raducal. Does anyone who support Israel existence is radical?

Israel constitution say that Israel will respect all of its citizens, no matter religion, 'race' or gender. It also call for the neighbore states to live in peace with us. If you will ACTUALY READ our constitution rather then brliving it to be what you feel it is, you will see yhe duffrunces betwern Israel and Hamas. Hamas constitotion say that they will never accept Israel as a state, and claim that the jews control the entire world. They say they want to destroy the entire jewish peoples. Google it and see for yourself.

 

Posted Aug 17, '14 at 6:31am

09philj

09philj

2,535 posts

Abd again we go with the arrogance. Israel and tge palestunians are not small kids which need guidness.


Because fixing it yourself has worked so well, hasn't it. (True, the US has made it even worse, but Israel should have stopped listening to them years ago, given the mess they've made)

It is true that Hamas present a dangerous ideology, that you have a right to be defended from, but the culture of reactionary, disproportionate, violence that exists within the Israeli Government is making things worse over time. I won't pretend to have a viable (and ethical) solution, but I wasn't elected to run the country, and anyone can see that the way the people who are in power going, you will destroy yourselves.
 

Posted Sep 3, '14 at 12:40pm

DaGoblin

DaGoblin

49 posts

That word disproportionate response.. You guys hear that from the medias, don't take their word for it. As someone who was there I can tell you the medias show you half truths and often blank lies too.

http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1313923&ct=7536409

Something more up to date:
http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/world-news/the-israeli-connection/lecture-colonel-richard-kemp-stresses-israel-isnt-a-war-criminal-6993

Edit: The second video:


Thank you, Mr. President.

I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Government�s Joint Intelligence Committee.

Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population.

Hamas, like Hizballah, are expert at driving the media agenda. Both will always have people ready to give interviews condemning Israeli forces for war crimes. They are adept at staging and distorting incidents.

The IDF faces a challenge that we British do not have to face to the same extent. It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong, that they are abusing human rights.

The truth is that the IDF took extraordinary measures to give Gaza civilians notice of targeted areas, dropping over 2 million leaflets, and making over 100,000 phone calls. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties. During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza. To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks.

Despite all of this, of course innocent civilians were killed. War is chaos and full of mistakes. There have been mistakes by the British, American and other forces in Afghanistan and in Iraq, many of which can be put down to human error. But mistakes are not war crimes.

More than anything, the civilian casualties were a consequence of Hamas� way of fighting. Hamas deliberately tried to sacrifice their own civilians.

Mr. President, Israel had no choice apart from defending its people, to stop Hamas from attacking them with rockets.

And I say this again: the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

Thank you, Mr. President.


last edited Sep 03 2014 12:49 pm by DaGoblin
 

Posted Sep 3, '14 at 1:46pm

09philj

09philj

2,535 posts

That word disproportionate response..


Even if the response isn't disproportionate, it is still reactionary, and merely breeds more violence.
 
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