Forums → The Tavern → Recoil in Energy Weapons makes no sense!

I've always assumed the recoil comes from the ignition of the plasma--something along those lines. Or it comes from whatever is expelling the plasma in the direction intended. But I don't know anything about science, to be honest.

@Doombreed Lot of movies and games don't make any sense. Do you realy think that authors will tire themselves with science? It is much easier to use some surface logic than check every detail.

Lot of movies and games don't make any sense. Do you realy think that authors will tire themselves with science? It is much easier to use some surface logic than check every detail.

True, but this seems like a mistake that can be easily avoided. In fact, it can even make a movie's production somewhat easier and/or faster as the actors don't have to focus on getting the gun's recoils acted correctly, making it require less attempts and resulting in the movie being finished faster, even if it's just a slight difference.

To me fixing this looks like nothing, but a benefit.

It is not only laziness, certain effects are consciously integrated into movies and games to make it look better, often against one's better judgement.

I agree as far as laser weapons go. I don't think there should be any noticeable recoil when firing beams of light, just as there is hardly any recoil when you use a laser pointer.

About plasma weapons: I am no physicist, but I don't think shooting pure plasma 'bullets' is a thing, as plasma needs a lot of energy not only to be ignited, but also kept in that state. It is for a reason that plasma rifles in Fallout 4 inflict part energy, part ballistic damage; you're shooting a compartment, probably the actual cartridge that contains the heated plasma. In which case the recoil is justified.

However, you mentioned "streams of plasma". That's probably also a possibility, though with restricted reach, as I imagine it working (and behaving) quite like a flamethrower. There would be a small counter-force to the ejected stream I guess (I have never held a flamethrower in my life so I cannot speak of experience ), but definitely no explosive recoil as in guns.

It'll make aiming too easy on shooters. No point to it. If you want to have realistic sci-fi movies, it'll be dead boring. No sound in space battles for instance.

Some firms/game companies hire scientific consultants to add to the realistic element, but at the end of the day it's all about entertainment value.

It'll make aiming too easy on shooters. No point to it. If you want to have realistic sci-fi movies, it'll be dead boring. No sound in space battles for instance.

Games today, especially shooters are not just about aiming. Sure it is still their most important aspect, but on meaningful shooters, the stability a laser weapon offers could be offset by damage or ammo/overheat properties.

As for the movies, it would make the bad guys hit something for a change. That actually sounds more interesting, instead of boring

However, you mentioned "streams of plasma". That's probably also a possibility, though with restricted reach, as I imagine it working (and behaving) quite like a flamethrower.

Yes, most probably. Unless one could, say, separate the plasma into "compartments" and fire those, just like you pointed out, which could produce recoil but then the visual effect would be much different. In mainstream media, plasma weapons seem to function as something between those two, id est firing seemingly streams of plasma but with an accuracy, range and recoil similar to conventional weapons (which also doesn't make any sense).

That would still just take away from the game's difficulty. Any weapon that doesn't have a recoil, and hence without the need to aim, is going to be pure cheese, even with overheating, low damage, overheat etc. Perhaps you can think of the gun's mechanisms actually just churning up and overheating, causing the recoil.

That would still just take away from the game's difficulty.

Well, the one game I've recently played that got it right (Mass Effect 2 - Collector Particle Beam) didn't seem to suffer too much from it. Sure, it is not a particularly tough game to begin with, but that gun itself plays a very small part in making the game easier, despite possessing excellent accuracy due to the lack of recoil (it basically fires a focused laser beam. But burns through ammo extremely quickly and deals low damage in comparison to other heavy weapons). How is the game going to be easy if you have so little maximum ammo for the gun itself? Even if 100% of the "shots" you fire with the gun land on target, you would have to abandon use once you run out and a gun like this cannot sustain fire for more than a few seconds. Or at least should not sustain fire for more than a few seconds, for balancing purposes. That doesn't seem overly hard to implement in a game either.

Oh, I meant more towards multiplayer mode, not story modes. A gun that can head shot 100% of the time provided you have proper aim is not going to cut much ice.

In any case, if we're talking about scientific realism....we can take away

Aliens
Demons
Monsters
Reanimated corpses
Explosions/shrapnel from your gun not killing you outright at close range
Recharging health
Being able to take ridiculous amounts of bullets before dying
Being able to carry five guns and running at the same pace

So any computer game would be ruined if we go down the realism path....

So any computer game would be ruined if we go down the realism path....

It's not all black and white nicho It's not either only realism or no realism xD This recoil thing simply seems lke it would make a good addition to any single player campaign, providing a different path for players who want to use a slightly different strategy

Aliens
Demons
Monsters
Reanimated corpses

Well, these do definitely add variety in games. On the contrary, recoil in energy weapons seems to reduce the variety of tactics a player can use

Explosions/shrapnel from your gun not killing you outright at close range
Being able to take ridiculous amounts of bullets before dying
Being able to carry five guns and running at the same pace

If we are talking about sci fi games (because, laser weapons, plasma, duh), then, shields and the like could explain this unlikely durability and certain ultralight materials/anti-grav systems or whatever could come into play in the guns issue . The problem with lasers is that it's the closest sci-fi element to reality, seeing as we already have lasers...hence why it is the easiest to pick apart in a sci-fi game. You can explain other unreal elements of such games with equally unnatural sci-fi gadgets and whatnot...but not lasers, because, well, we already have those xD That's why

(it basically fires a focused laser beam. But burns through ammo extremely quickly and deals low damage in comparison to other heavy weapons)

Seriously, plasma is just superheated gas (ok it's not as simple as that, but I am trying to keep it simple) It doesn't involve conventional ballistics in launching it [...]

a soldier could never keep the beam on target with a high enough accuracy, and the problem gets worse with increasing distance.

Why is that? I imagine it as if feeling nothing, like you said, a laser pointer. Even if a soldier cannot keep it steady, a beam like that could cause serious damage even if the exposure lasts less than a second, so, problem solved

On the topic of inappropriate recoil, what about rail guns and coil guns? If I understand their principle right, they fire ballistic projectiles propelled solely by electromagnetic forces. I'm not 100% sure but I don't think this would produce any noticeable recoil?

Yes, the projectile is constantly accelerated while moving towards the open end of the railgun (cannot speak about coil guns unfortunately). So the electromagnetic force (Lorentz) that propels it remains the same while the projectile is fired. Additionally, because it is electromagnetic in nature, that force is not exactly applied on the projectile by the rails themselves. So the "recoil" would, by extension not apply to the rails either...I think at least That's the way I understand the theory. However, the rails would have to be very stable, as the electromagnetic forces that build up there could take them apart if they are not properly mounted. I bet such a phenomenon has an effect on the "recoil" (if it can be called that) of the gun too...

You got these questions from XCOM from playing too much XCOM Doom. Just sayin'.

Nope, I got it from multiple things, XCOM included. It is just one of the numerous examples

Of course it does. It's a stream of fast-moving charged particles launched from a non-immobile source. You can use this stuff to propel rockets.

Hm...interesting. I did not know that admittedly. No idea how it would work though, what kind of recoil would it produce (if it is like it sounds, it could be massive) or any other specifications for such kind of weapon.

On the topic of inappropriate recoil, what about rail guns and coil guns? If I understand their principle right, they fire ballistic projectiles propelled solely by electromagnetic forces. I'm not 100% sure but I don't think this would produce any noticeable recoil?

Why is that? I imagine it as if feeling nothing, like you said, a laser pointer. Even if a soldier cannot keep it steady, a beam like that could cause serious damage even if the exposure lasts less than a second, so, problem solved

Relativistic energy of a particle:
E^2=(m*c^2)^2+p^2*c^2.
m=0 in the case of a photon
E=pc

Relativistic mass:
mc^2 = pc
Where m is relativistic:
m = p/c

De Broglie's relation: λ=h/p
where h is planck's constant
p=h/λ

Relativistic mass m = E/c^2 = h/λc

m = E/c^2 = 6.62607004×10-34 / λ 3x10^8
m = E/9*10^16 = 2.20869e-26/λ

So let's say you want 1kg mass of light. That's 9*10^16 Joules, or by Wikipedia:

The petajoule (PJ) is equal to one quadrillion (10^15) joules. 210 PJ is equivalent to about 50 megatons of TNT. This is the amount of energy released by the Tsar Bomba, the largest man-made nuclear explosion ever.

If you feel recoil, you're dead already.