ForumsWEPRCommunism and Capitalism

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Drace
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Drace
3,900 posts
Peasant

I wanted to open up this topic again...
Hopefully I will get some thoughtful responses :-$
______

I think most people have the wrong view of communism.


The "equal pay" and the "you cant achieve anything" are not much to say. One whole thing of communists want to change is taking away the attention of people away from money. People are not born greedy. It is rather that we try to achieve. Who is to say people are born wanting to get more and more money? We just try to achieve goals. Look at Armorgames. The community here does not get anything over another, yet we are working our asses off trying to get AP. What we call greed comes from the process of people getting money, which usually involves "bad" behavior (The business world is cruel). Bill Gates, however rich, is not greedy.

Capitalism is like taking all of a persons freedoms away at birth and selling it to them when they can afford it it. You cant live without money. You rely on others for earning this money, but those who give it to you dont care of you. Employees are just concerned with getting their profit off you. The problem is, the road to getting a good job, housing, medical care, insurances, etc, are very though and cricket. There is no system for it. This is the freedom you supposedly have in capitalism! You are free to build your own road to happiness. Its like letting a baby do whatever he wants when it cant support itself. The mother should take of it. There is no system to get you settled. What communism does is create this system. No its not taking your freedom away, it is helping you by providing free education, health care, housing...

Its sad to see people say communists are evil, lol. Don't worry, we touch the existing evil with gloves on, it does not contaminate us.

  • 126 Replies
crimsonblade55
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crimsonblade55
5,433 posts
Farmer

I have no issue with communism,but the people who run communist countries are the ones many of us take issue to,so keep that in mind.The countries that I do take issue to are the ones that have a fascist government.At times some of them don't even care if everyone in their countries died except for the reason that they wouldn't be able to tell anyone what to do anymore.

Drace
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Drace
3,900 posts
Peasant

Well I'm not sure how one can link a cruel leader to communism. It is nothing but an idea.

And Hitler was a fascist and look at what he did. Btw, fascist is total anti - communism.

Eshploded
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Eshploded
469 posts
Peasant

Communists have no single leader and depend on the obedience of the people to help keep the cycle going. Unfortunately we all don't have wills of iron to keep us from being greedy, and if one sees the chance to be happier if he steals some food, he might do it, or the greed might progress until he does. Then once the cycle is broken and then people start learning from this man's greed, some may be tempted to do so as well, and since there are no laws, or anybody to enforce the laws, the progression of crimes might increase.

thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,156 posts
Shepherd

The idea of communism is not bad, it is just the way it is implied throughout that is bad. And people want to achieve things. It really causes alot of conflict. If I am working my ass off as a big businessman, I would think that I deserve more pay than the guy sitting at the welcome bench. It is not human greed that does that, rather common sense.

Drace
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Drace
3,900 posts
Peasant

and since there are no laws, or anybody to enforce the laws, the progression of crimes might increase.


There is laws and there are people enforcing them.

If I am working my *** off as a big businessman, I would think that I deserve more pay than the guy sitting at the welcome bench.


Businessman deserve 500x what they deserve. Also, no one is going to get paid for sitting at the bench. You have to work to get paid...
Drace
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Drace
3,900 posts
Peasant

Businessman deserve 500x what they deserve.


Businessman GET 500x what they deserve.

Communists have no single leader and depend on the obedience of the people to help keep the cycle going.


Hows a republican communist state sound?

The idea of communism is not bad, it is just the way it is implied throughout that is bad.


I'm not so concerned as to how implant it. My job is to rather perfect the idea. There will be a time in history where we will have the chance to start a communist state. Although it might be bloody, but if perfected, it will be worth it.

USA, when it was just a colony, could of just stayed in British rule, but they made a nice democratic government, but problems have arisen today. Communism is the next step.
Eshploded
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Eshploded
469 posts
Peasant

People who have harder work will believe they deserve more luxury at home, but since they receive the same living conditions as everybody, they may become angry. Jealousy and negative emotion may corrupt the system, which is a problem.

Drace
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Drace
3,900 posts
Peasant

People who have harder work will believe they deserve more luxury at home, but since they receive the same living conditions as everybody, they may become angry. Jealousy and negative emotion may corrupt the system, which is a problem.


Working harder? Please, tell me how one job is harder then another. Tell me why I should get better living conditions just because I got lucky getting a better job here. Luck is involved.

Construction workers break their backs all day and we call them lazy.
quakingphear
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quakingphear
410 posts
Shepherd

Communism is a good idea. It's that the leaders of major Communist governments tried to change things too much, on a massive scale. The logistics of communism are too much for large countries. Thats why some villages in Russia, had nothing to eat, but had an abundance of shoes. The leaders should have started small. Mao had a good idea with the communes. If he had just started with one, and used it as a guinea pig he could have found the bugs and made communism easier to implement.

Eshploded
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Eshploded
469 posts
Peasant

Working harder? Please, tell me how one job is harder then another. Tell me why I should get better living conditions just because I got lucky getting a better job here. Luck is involved.


Lets compare labor work with labor work. One person has the job of pulling a lever in a factory, which is a pretty simple and easy task for him. On the fields, a man would be breaking his back picking strawberries from the ground. There, an example showing how some work is harder than the other.

If luck was involved, some may pass it off based on their personality, and some won't. Some may see it as unequal.
Eshploded
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Eshploded
469 posts
Peasant

Also, I hope when you think about a communist society, you will also consider outside influences, such as other nations. They can change the attitudes and personalities of the people and might eventually create some civil disorder and other conflict.

SuperzMcShort
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SuperzMcShort
325 posts
Peasant

Communism has proven itself to only work in small scenarios. In a small village where everyone knows each other it's easy to live a communal lifestyle as has happened in many cases over the years due to the fact that everyone knows each other, recognizes their work, and can understand who they hurt if they break the rules.

However on a large scale (such as a nation, or globally) communist societies just don't work, because while it's easy to share your crops with your neighbor, it's hard for people in general to give them away tot those that they don't know, faceless people in a distant city. Furthermore, communism doesn't work on a large scale because you create an inherent imbalance just with the logistics come from it. You need leaders, truck drivers, factory managers, as well as farmers. This creates an inherent imbalance in a system that strives for complete equality which some would say dooms the system from the very beginning (if everyone is not absolutely equal you can be sure that people will be jealous, and unhappy with the state).

Drace
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Drace
3,900 posts
Peasant

One person has the job of pulling a lever in a factory, which is a pretty simple and easy task for him. On the fields, a man would be breaking his back picking strawberries from the ground.


Pulling a lever all day is a tough job. Btw, there is mechanics these days that can do that job And even if it is a big problem...I introduce you the different wage system! And it is in communism that you actually have the chance to become anything you want, free education so the different wage system works well.


it's hard for people in general to give them away tot those that they don't know, faceless people in a distant city.


You don't necessarily give things away... You do your job and the produced goods go to the state, from there it is distributed among the people.

Look at our capitalistic society, you work, the employer gets the goods, he sells the goods, HE PROFITS from the goods. Whereas in a commune, it is for the good of the people.

Furthermore, communism doesn't work on a large scale because you create an inherent imbalance just with the logistics come from it.


How?

You need leaders, truck drivers, factory managers, as well as farmers


Yes? How does this create inherent imbalance?

Communisms tries to make everyone FINANCIALLY equal and even so, one does not acknowledge someone better then them because they are the manager and you are the worker.
Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,555 posts
Duke

The discussion with this seems to revolve around the application of these systems, which is imperfect at best. In the U.S. we call ourselves "capitalists" but that doesn't really mean anything because we have plenty of "socialist" programs.
McShort brings up a fantastic point, though, in that Communism is really taking a giant step backwards to the time of hunter/gatherers living in very small communities. But I want to attack communism on a more theoretical level for a moment.
The premise that Marx and Engels developed was that all struggle, strife, war, and famine was due to this concept called class struggle. Aristocrats manipulating lower classes for their own needs while the lower classes would riot to achieve their goals. Before the industrial revolution and the idea of communism, there was no class identity at all. These concepts later developed because of labels attached to a certain group of people, but herein lies my objection: this class of people never experienced any identity before that was based on their class and they really have very little in common in this particular dynamic.
An income level or a job position does not really identify a group of people in any meaningful way. But nonetheless, communism tries to solve this problem by eliminating classes altogether, which brings up my second objection.
Historical events were not "caused" by any one thing - and especially not class struggle. History is a series of accidental contingencies that were influenced by innumerable factors and conditions.

My point is that the arguments I'm seeing here are more or less red herrings. Communism tries to do nothing more than eliminate class struggle - everything else that is wrong with it comes in with the application of the system (which is also quite flawed).

Drace
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Drace
3,900 posts
Peasant

In the U.S. we call ourselves "capitalists" but that doesn't really mean anything because we have plenty of "socialist" programs.


Creating those socialist programs does not make you any less of a capitalist. As long as we see the free market, you are a capitalist.

Communism tries to do nothing more than eliminate class struggle


Does that sound so small to you? Consider this class struggle as a huge evil box. In it contains, poverty, oppression of money, greed, lies, inequality, unfairness...lot more that are not on my mind.

You usually get a lot more then your asking for.


Money I spend should determine the quality of my work and the pleasure I am entitled to, not the withering away of paper.

My soul is not to be sold for a profit. My soul was not born for you, not the richening of a business owner. My soul handles my two hands and my two feet, which I am to use for my own needs, but don't force my will to work for you.

Why are you to profit off my needs?
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