Forums → WEPR → [redirected]If God created all things
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Here is something to get the brain going. It's been said that God created ALL things. Also it's been said that God is 100 precent pure/good. So God created man and it was said that because of man's sinful actions bad/evil things were created. But if God created ALL things then God created bad/evil things, not man. So by God creating bad/evil things this does not make him 100 precent pure/good.
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NoName brings up a good point, which made me think of the heaven paradox. I'm not sure how well known this paradox is, so I'll explain briefly.
My best friend is a devout Baptist and I would claim that if heaven exists, he is bound to go there. Of course, my best friend would be much happier in heaven if I'm around so we can hang out and play Playstation. But as an atheist, if there's a hell, I'm definitely headed there. So, do I get a free ride to heaven to make someone else's heaven perfect?
On the flip side, suppose there is another good Christian who my best friend just loathes. Would that person be banned from heaven because my best friend would be miserable if he's around?
Doop doop. Paradoxical.
The moral is, always trust God to do the right thing.
True Story. In all things God's knowledge exceeds our's and he always understands the big picture.
just because God made them so inferior to himself
Jesus was tempted as any human as he was 100% man and 100% God; clearly our inferiority is very minute.
God created heaven to reward those who love him
Heaven was created as the domain of God and the angels; originally humans would not have died but would have prospered in the Garden of Eden, Hell was created as the domain of Satan and the demons. Originally neither of these two places was for mankind but after the first sin the rules changed. Those who are pure of sin (through sacrifice originally and through Jesus after his sacrifice the cross) are granted eternal life in heaven while those who are sinful are granted hell and eternal death.
Do those who live well deserve to endure pain and suffering simply because they do not except God?
Yes. You can't live well in the eyes of God as every sin completely corrupts your soul, only through accepting Jesus can one be saved from his sins.
Heaven is about the worship of God and nothing more; it's highly doubtful that anything else will occur. I doubt your friend will even know your gone (no offence) or realize the other Christian is there. The pure joy and love of God will radiate throughout heaven and nothing else will be of concern.
My best friend is a devout Baptist and I would claim that if heaven exists, he is bound to go there. Of course, my best friend would be much happier in heaven if I'm around so we can hang out and play Playstation. But as an atheist, if there's a hell, I'm definitely headed there. So, do I get a free ride to heaven to make someone else's heaven perfect?
On the flip side, suppose there is another good Christian who my best friend just loathes. Would that person be banned from heaven because my best friend would be miserable if he's around?
Doop doop. Paradoxical.
It's not a paradox. I'm sure he wouldn't be miserable. He would understand why you didn't make it to heaven and why the guy he hates did. Your friend and that guy don't have to talk or anything. If your friend hates this guy so much that the mere knowledge that he's in Heaven makes him miserable, he has some serious problems.
So you believe, that humans who CAN NOT HELP BUT BE BELOW GOD deserve to endure eternal pain and suffering, just because God made them so inferior to himself. However, God created heaven to reward those who love him, so obviously not everyone deserves to go to hell, because God saw it fit to allow people into heaven.
Humans had the chance to be good and without sin. They lost that chance when they listened to the snake's gilded lies and ate the fruit. Therefore, humans COULD help it. They just chose not to.
So what I'm asking is this. Do those who live well deserve to endure pain and suffering simply because they do not except God?
Yes. Regardless of how well they lived, they undoubtedly sinned. Sinners go to Hell, unless absolved by Jesus' sacrifice. By not accepting God, they accept that they are sinners who are destined to go to Hell.
Well those ended up like double posts...
I apologize for previous comments made on previous pages. Good to have you around =]
So what is this thing about sin? All of us have done it. Are those that do sins even though they are Christians better off than those that commit sins and are not Christians? If you are Christians and still sin, where does this put you?
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:23-24
Right there.
In other words you are free to sin so long as you believe in Jesus Christ. Correct?
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunishedâ" 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
And there.
So what is this thing about sin? All of us have done it. Are those that do sins even though they are Christians better off than those that commit sins and are not Christians? If you are Christians and still sin, where does this put you?
Basically, yes. Christians who have sinned are much better off than non-Christians. They will go to heaven, while the non-Christians will go to Hell.
Yes. As samy said, we all deserve to go to hell. Luck for us, God sacrificed His son, Jesus. But that sacrifice can't be counted for someone who doesn't believe in it. Therefore, they go to Hell.
I'm sorry, but this is far to much like the sort of ultimatum a tyrant would make. "Believe in me or suffer forever." This is exactly one of the things that makes me reject and despise religion and the religious. I will not be threatened with eternal damnation and simply comply because I do not want to be damned. There are Christians out there who I believe are morally inferior to me, I've met many, it has to be enough to be a good and moral person.
it has to be enough to be a good and moral person.
It's not. No matter how hard you try, you will sin. Therefore, you are unworthy of going into Heaven and you deserve to go to Hell. However, accepting Jesus as your savior can absolve you of your sins, making you(technically)worthy to go to Heaven.
However, accepting Jesus as your savior can absolve you of your sins, making you(technically)worthy to go to Heaven.
Again it is nothing but an ultimatum of tyrrany, a petty coercion. I may not believe in any form of god, but I am a moral person, we all sin, but why should one sin dam us forever? Let's say (hypothetically) a man who does not believe in god lives a perfect life, yet there is only ONE time in his life that he sins, he tells a lie, why should this man go to hell?
Wolf, it isn't an ultimatum but an offering. If you were drowning and I offered you my hand to save you it would be an ultimatum for your life but it would be of the purpose of saving your life. Humans are not neutral in life but living in the full life of Jesus Christ or the death of rejection. Also all sins are equal both quantitativly and qualitativly making it the great equalizer, one sin corrupts your soul and prevents you from being in God' presence. As a side not if there is no God hoe can we define morals? Or further a moral person?
If you were drowning and I offered you my hand to save you it would be an ultimatum for your life but it would be of the purpose of saving your life.
I think that's a really good analogy. But it doesn't completely work because in the case of drowning, I didn't throw you into the water. But my existence, if God exists, depends on God's existence as a necessary condition. I certainly didn't ask to be here, so why am I thrust into a situation I didn't even want just to follow rules that are counter to what I actually want to do? And the argument that I should be grateful for the life I've been given just doesn't make sense to me. I mean, if I never existed, I wouldn't care that I don't exist. With existence comes pain, suffering, and inevitable death.
I've come up with an analogy that better describes how I view the situation. It's like being taken to a party where you see all these really fun activities going on, but the host of the party who you've never seen and aren't even sure exists insists on you not participating in these activities. Rather, you're just to think about how great the party is and how great the host must be for throwing this amazing party.
As for me, I'm gonna bob for apples if I feel like it.
No; if he did I probably wouldn't be a Christian even if I believed he existed. However; by definition it would make it "good".
But if God makes the rules and his rules define what's good this hypothetical scenario should be no different to you then not stealing to you. So why would you make this choice over this rule if God did make it but not another? It almost sounds like your the one determining what's moral to you or not.
Heaven is about the worship of God and nothing more; it's highly doubtful that anything else will occur.
Kissing an omnipotent beings @$$ for eternity doesn't exactly sound like a very good afterlife.
The pure joy and love of God will radiate throughout heaven and nothing else will be of concern.
Sounds a bit like brain washing.
Humans had the chance to be good and without sin. They lost that chance when they listened to the snake's gilded lies and ate the fruit. Therefore, humans COULD help it. They just chose not to.
I never ate fruit because some snake told me to, I didn't event exist yet. Why should I suffer for that?
Basically, yes. Christians who have sinned are much better off than non-Christians. They will go to heaven, while the non-Christians will go to Hell.
So you think over 2/3 of the world will go to hell?
Wolf, it isn't an ultimatum but an offering. If you were drowning and I offered you my hand to save you it would be an ultimatum for your life but it would be of the purpose of saving your life.
But the person offering the helping hand is also the one who put us in the situation to drown in the first place.
Going to hell for our sins is again the battered wife syndrome "he hurts me but I deserve it because I did something wrong"
Also all sins are equal both quantitativly and qualitativly making it the great equalizer, one sin corrupts your soul and prevents you from being in God' presence.
So you see no difference between stealing a piece of candy and killing the candy man running the store?
one sin corrupts your soul and prevents you from being in God' presence.
So Gods perfect answer to someone suffering in his presence is for them to suffer someplace else instead?
As a side not if there is no God hoe can we define morals? Or further a moral person?
As noted in my hypothetical it would appear our morals are defined by us. What you might consider moral might not be what I consider moral. Collectively we can make agreements such as, I don't want to be killed and you don't want to be killed so lets agree not to kill each other. Those who don't agree to this can't be around us. Thus we form a moral code we can both agree to by doing this. Morals aren't objective but subjective.
Really your arguments here seem to be becoming more and more convoluted as you go.
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