Forums → WEPR → [redirected]If God created all things
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Here is something to get the brain going. It's been said that God created ALL things. Also it's been said that God is 100 precent pure/good. So God created man and it was said that because of man's sinful actions bad/evil things were created. But if God created ALL things then God created bad/evil things, not man. So by God creating bad/evil things this does not make him 100 precent pure/good.
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A lack of God becomes sin... It's simple mathematics...
How about I follow my love of life in my own way, and not through a religion. Is that sin?
Sin is not an actual thing...
Okay I'm with you so far.
sin is the lack of something.
And you begin to fall apart. I suppose your first sentence does make some sense since good and evil are concepts not things. So we could also say good is not a thing, it's a concept.
A lack of God becomes sin...
Again atheists get called evil, you know there is a point I'm going to stop laughing at that.
So He did not create sin, He created mankind CAPABLE of sinning
If there is a God this would still leave him partly responsible. I think I said this earlier but if there was a God he could have simply instilled in us a lack of desire to do evil (using the term in a more religious black and white context). We would still be free to do all the bad stuff just not have a desire to do it. This still doesn't explain evils that are resulted from things outside free will. I know some say it's Gods test, but this only further puts the blame on God.
That is the ultimate proof of His love... He COULD micromanage us... but loved us so much that He wanted us to love Him back with our free will...
And when we don't want that relationship we get sent to a place to be tortured for all eternity, but you know it's totally up to you.
Like you could agree with me and live peacefully or some guy named Stan will some day come over to your house a break your fingers with a hammer, but you know it's your choice.
Thus making it a true relationship...
Let's look at that relationship.
Came across a video last night that seems to sum up this relationship quite nicely.
Set Yourself Free
For those of you not willing to actually look at the video.
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"Battered Women Syndrome" is common in abusive relationships. The symptoms have a pattern.
1) The woman believes it's all her fault.
2)The woman has an inability to place the responsibility for the violence elsewhere.
3)The woman fears for her life and the lives of her children.
4) The woman has an irrational belief that the abuser is omnipresent and omniscient.
Now this gets compare to those with a relationship with God.
"it's my fault" "I have a sinful nature"
"I'm unworthy" "the punishment is death" "Eternal Hell" "Love God"
"He is everywhere" "Fear God" "he knows everything"
"He loves me" "He punishes me" "He condemns me"
"He saves me"
"I just can't leave him"
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Notice any similarities there?
I didn't retype the video in it's entirety, but that's the gist of it.
If God created all things who created god
The usual answer to this one is "God always existed" This argument while at first may seem simple, really only serves to muddy the waters. If we are to say something always existed it would be much simpler to say the singularity that sparked the big bang always existed. This is still a crude answer but a much simpler one.
it would be much simpler to say the singularity that sparked the big bang always existed
you know? I never thought of it that way. Suddenly the god always existed argument has far less weight.
Battered Women Syndrome" is common in abusive relationships. The symptoms have a pattern.
1) The woman believes it's all her fault.
2)The woman has an inability to place the responsibility for the violence elsewhere.
3)The woman fears for her life and the lives of her children.
4) The woman has an irrational belief that the abuser is omnipresent and omniscient.
So religion = domestic violence?
While you do actually make a very good point, you're also over simplifying it (kind of). It really depends on your definition of good and evil. Some religions, like you said, use a very "black and white" definition. That is, things are either good or evil, and not to much lies in between. But I find that many people think more along the lines of "shades of grey." In this case, you don't really have absolute "evil or good". Everything has characteristics of both "good and evil", but in varying amounts. Additionally, like you said, "good and evil" are both just concepts, not actual measurable characteristcs like mass or energy (this is why I say "good and evil" using quotes).
If you use the latter of these definitions, the battered wife theory doesn't work so well. Its like you're expecting god to be perfect. And yes, I realize that's what god is supposed to be. But he could just be a very light shade of grey. Instead of an abusive husband, he might be more like a husband that forgets to take the trash out every now and then.
While you do actually make a very good point, you're also over simplifying it (kind of).
Yes I do realize it's a simplified form. However I do find the similarities between an abusive relationship and that of the relationship with God interesting. I also realize not everyone has this same relationship.
If you use the latter of these definitions, the battered wife theory doesn't work so well. Its like you're expecting god to be perfect. And yes, I realize that's what god is supposed to be. But he could just be a very light shade of grey. Instead of an abusive husband, he might be more like a husband that forgets to take the trash out every now and then.
No it still works. As we can compare what an abuses spouse says to what many Christians say and see the similarities, there would clearly seem to be more then just "a husband forgetting to take out the trash" going on.
I have only seen the first two and the last page in this thread, so I have some things to say that may be lost in your memories...
His REAL image is that of Jesus's brother, he's still an angel. The red horned demon thing were his creations/minions to acompany him in Hell.This is all Mormon beliefs btw...
The apostles creed is probably the best explanation of the beliefs of true Christians. Unfortunately, it says nothing about the Trinity, so we have to go to Biblical references like Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one.and John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
if there was a God he could have simply instilled in us a lack of desire to do evilHe gave us no knowledge of sin to begin with, so humans were perfect when we were created. Then, we were given the choice to obey or disobey, and we failed. God didn't bring sin into the world, Satan tempted us and WE FELL FOR IT. It was not God's fault, it was ours.
Sorry if I am being lazy here, but how did we get to the point where we decided God was partly bad?
He gave us no knowledge of sin to begin with, so humans were perfect when we were created. Then, we were given the choice to obey or disobey, and we failed. God didn't bring sin into the world, Satan tempted us and WE FELL FOR IT. It was not God's fault, it was ours.
First of all knowledge and desire are two completely different things. Looking at this from Biblical terms, using a Biblical scenario. Let's just for a moment say the whole temptation deal never happened so Cain and Abel were born without the knowledge of good and evil. This wouldn't mean Cain couldn't still have the desire to kill Abel, it just means he wouldn't know it was wrong to do so.
We can still blame God for allowing the Devil in Eden and installing the means for the devil to temp Eve in the first place. If God didn't want us to know good from evil then don't place something that could give us that ability in easy reach.
And... Why are we talking about this like it really happened? Even to most of the Christians here this is only a metaphorical story interpreted thousands of different ways but only (insert religious denomination) has the right interpretation.
god isn't real and jesus isn't eitherhurray for spammers! you're in the wrong topic for that. all the ones you are looking for have been locked...and it is partly my fault. If you want a good discussion on that point, we can have a little chat via email k?
If God didn't want us to know good from evil then don't place something that could give us that ability in easy reach.
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. ~Romans 11:32
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy. ~Micah 7:18
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. ~Romans 11:32
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy. ~Micah 7:18
So God allowed the Devil and gave him the means to temp his creation knowing full well what the result would be (omniscient). Just so he could be merciful to some of us and let the rest go to hell?
So God allowed the Devil and gave him the means to temp his creation knowing full well what the result would be (omniscient)The Devil was also created perfect btw.
Maybe said God isn't happy, and therefore does not want to party.
So he says "Hey, you little dudes, Your going to spend 30-80 years [unless I'd rather have you die earlier] on a cruddy little circle that floats around a big ball of gas -- Because the first two of you were tempted by the bad guy, and I'd rather reward the rest of you that can resist the bad guy, Gl."
It sounds like a children's story, not because it is one, but because there isn't much sense it trying to make sense out of it in the first place.
I don't see how you can argue over something that has occasionally been referred to as a "Divine Plan". Thats like looking at the Blueprints of a Martian spaceshuttle from 2030. Good Luck.
I haven't read the Bible, but in transliterations of the Quran I've never read that he is 'Good'.
He's said to be merciful, benevolent, etc. All nice attributes, but there's no notation of him being 100% like that, and it isn't up to us to judge him like a Human. After all, who are we to know what God is [Technically Speaking]
If he's going to pile up some mercy and be nice on the day he finds out I said "F**K" (plus everything else ) then Hoorah. I've never quite seen that he would love us all and give us all gifts and make this world a happy place to be -- What would be the point of living? Nobodies going to say thanx to a divine being that just throws you onto Heaven, you'd sit there, get fat, and eventually forget about him [and still, sadly, be fat :S]
Just so you all know, I am an incarnation of God.
I am God and his will, his ideals and the growing spirit made by my followers.
You have all been waiting for me, and now the time is come.
On an ark I take those faithful, in a coffin I send those hateful.
Down to the depths of hell do my unbelievers go, bound to eternal suffering.
My hopes that their deaths are painful and slow...
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