ForumsWEPR[redirected]If God created all things

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DrCool1
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DrCool1
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Bard

Here is something to get the brain going. It's been said that God created ALL things. Also it's been said that God is 100 precent pure/good. So God created man and it was said that because of man's sinful actions bad/evil things were created. But if God created ALL things then God created bad/evil things, not man. So by God creating bad/evil things this does not make him 100 precent pure/good.

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

i watched this video, and i am now officially gonna have nightmares about the creepy man lady, and her manly horrendous lipstick and creepy slick backed greaser hairstyle. So that is basically enough for me to kinda disregard his/her... screw it..


Your disregarding what's being discussed based on the way a person looks? I'm not sure it's even worth replying to the rest of your post.
nonconformist
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Nomad

Your disregarding what's being discussed based on the way a person looks? I'm not sure it's even worth replying to the rest of your post.

haha, well you probably didnt read the rest of my post then... Because i took everything else serious, once i turned my computer down. But nice try i guess, to just disregard everything i said... what is it the other guy said... disregardation is compliance... o well

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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haha, well you probably didnt read the rest of my post then... Because i took everything else serious, once i turned my computer down. But nice try i guess, to just disregard everything i said... what is it the other guy said... disregardation is compliance... o well


Not really. Considering what I was saying is pretty much the same as what they are saying since I am even using this video as a basis and your disregarding that for an ad hominem does nothing but kills your argument out right.
nonconformist
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nonconformist
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Nomad

Not really. Considering what I was saying is pretty much the same as what they are saying since I am even using this video as a basis and your disregarding that for an ad hominem does nothing but kills your argument out right.

Now ur sounding like a christian on the ropes trying to disprove what an athiest says. Basically because i took everything he said, and then proposed a counter arguement... All my theries go to waste, because i think he looks like a scary maralyn manson. Sry bud, but he's an athiest, and im trying to disprove his facts with mine. And the fact is, it doesn't matter what i say about him, what i said is a clear counter arguement, and taking 1% of my wording and trying to disregard what im saying with it, well lets just say thats very insignificant, and you can say what you want about it, but it doesn't help your case wat so ever. Basically you have an arguement formented from a kid sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling i cant hear you. But its cool

nonconformist
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nonconformist
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Nomad

sry for the dbl post... But also, if your gonna start saying may points should be thrown out because of my opinion on the way someone looks, than your whole arguement on gods morals (i mean the youtube vid) should basically be thrown out also. It has crazy biasy in it, and it makes more sense to throw out biasy than an opinion on looks.. Sorry, but your reasononing towards shunning what i had to say doesn't hold water

MageGrayWolf
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Now ur sounding like a christian on the ropes trying to disprove what an athiest says. Basically because i took everything he said, and then proposed a counter arguement... All my theries go to waste, because i think he looks like a scary maralyn manson.


You started your argument with "I'm disregarding this because of the way the person looked" That right there hurts what ever you had to say after that. But since you don't seem to want to drop I will oblige you on this one, even though I don't think your worth it at this point.

then they should be punished. Should we not remember that we also killed people for crimes they commited? We dont look back on the government, and the law enforcement, and say wow they are bad people!!! No we see the murderers, and say they deserved it.


There are actually many who disagree with the death penalty. It is a clearly imperfect solution to a problem and a supreme being should be able to come up with better.

K first off we got of each animal, so life basically restarted.


This raises another problem since he is killing off countless animals for what people did (another trend of God mind you).

And on another note, no ones knows how many people were on the planet at that time. For all we know there could've been like 100 people


The numbers here don't really matter his answer to the problem was mass genocide.

He wanted man to go there own way, follow what they thought was right. Once they stepped over the breaking point into the lets call it... the heart of darkness??? He knew they went to far, and there was no going back.


Something your God would have known would happen and just let happen raising the question why he would let things go that far in the first place.

Seeing the only good on earth he decided to try and save that part, and destroy all the evil. What do you do with zombies??? you kill em. Or is that going to be another moral judgement also?


Kill or be killed is defiantly a different case all together.

For instance he pleaded with the pharoah to harden his heart with the burden of the death of children, and still the pharoah said no... Therefore God caused the death of all first born children..


Oh well if he was trying to prove a point to the ruling body then I guess that makes killing kids okay. Get real...

Like i think we've been over this a million times. The bible was written to help cope with things back in the day... If they were to say slavery was wrong, christians would be killed.


Early Christianity were already being killed for there beliefs.

You first say its wrong to kill the people causing slavery, and now ur saying its wrong to have slavery. so umm yea, just kinda showing a point here.. I mean God killed the people causing slavery, and you just pointed it out how it was such a bad thing, and now ur saying that god doesnt mind slavery.. hmmmm weird.


Your saying he had to tell people it was okay. So clearly he didn't kill thew slavers off. The Bible in both old and new testaments clearly condones slavery that's what's there.

And yea its the sin of adam and eve, because they chose to go against gods word. It is such a horrible sin, that it is to be passed down to every generation. That would mean us all. Yea its a bit weird, but I mean God is a judge, and thus gives out the punishment. I mean getting baptized isnt that bad...


So you are saying that while weird it is acceptable to be condemned for something someone else did and we have to say sorry even though we didn't do it.

The fact that someone was willing to die for humanities sins, was enough for God to realize that there truely was good in humanity. Especially the way he died, gave God the epiphany. Not to mention that Jesus was the son of God, allowing him to take part in decision made within the spectrum of heaven and judgement of man.


This still seems like a needless gesture to show a being who is supposed to be all that and some int he love department and is still saying that punishing an innocent for anothers guilt is okay.

And of course hell. How could a God do this? Well theres a place for evil buddy, and it definately doesn't belong up where God is.


As it has been pointed out that if not evil can enter heaven then those who do get in would have to be fundamentally altered first raising the question of why not just do this with everyone.

And i should also say, if you were all powerful, and someone didn't believe in you and tried with every might to prove you wrong, would you really want them to live in your house? Would you want to become pals with them? Anyways its either eternal ****ation, or eternal bliss, depending on if you follow good morals or not.


I sure wouldn't send them to a place to be tortured for eternity.

So heres the thing. So lets put it in terms of life. Either your gonna go to jail for being bad, or your going to live outside of jail... Its simple as that. Does someone mighty and powerful wanna sit next to someone whos killed a bunch of people. Probably not.


You seemed to have missed the point. It's not just denying them a good after life it's out right torturing them for eternity as punishment for a limited issue.

It would be like a kid breaking curfew and being grounded and beat for the rest of his life for it. The punishment is disproportionate to the crime.

And next time, dont pick sum biased pr'ck that looks like a wanna be maralyn manson on youtube to give your source


Again this ad hominem BS is exactly why I didn't want to reply to you in the first place. Now SHOVE IT!
nonconformist
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nonconformist
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Nomad

Again this ad hominem BS is exactly why I didn't want to reply to you in the first place. Now SHOVE IT!

Its not BS at all. Every single athiest ive known gets starts there defence with "the website is clearly biased".. Therefore its an ad hominem... Just trying to show you how it feels. And if this kid wasn't so judgemental, biased, know all and be all of everything possible, then i wouldnt talk crap about him? (still not sure, and im actually being serious now cuz i dont want to hurt feelings any further =/)... And also im not gonna shove it, cuz im tired of this relentless attacks trying to disprove christianity, and shake peoples believes. Its semi immature, and extremely annoying. So here you go, this is how it always feels, exactly what you just decided to say to me... =O.

You seemed to have missed the point. It's not just denying them a good after life it's out right torturing them for eternity as punishment for a limited issue.
It would be like a kid breaking curfew and being grounded and beat for the rest of his life for it. The punishment is disproportionate to the crime.


False. Its like a kid constantly breaking curfew, constantly stealing, and constantly getting into trouble and never ever repenting, asking for forgiveness, or apologizing for the crimes he's commiting. That is what it would be like... Its not one little thing causing you to go to hell, which is where the biased BS came into play.

sure wouldn't send them to a place to be tortured for eternity.

well i guess it sucks for you if he exists huh =/

This still seems like a needless gesture to show a being who is supposed to be all that and some int he love department and is still saying that punishing an innocent for anothers guilt is okay.

Jesus died for it in the harshest way possible, without even trying to get away. He sacrificed himself to save everyone. Like someone jumping onto a grenade to save others around them in a war. He wasn't punished either, considering he's Gods right hand... If he was punished i think he'd be in hell.

So you are saying that while weird it is acceptable to be condemned for something someone else did and we have to say sorry even though we didn't do it.

Were part of the same family... Considering everyone is decendants of Adam and Eve... Yes. I think its understandable to be that angry.. That your own creation disobeys you the only way possible like a couple days after you create them. But again, pinpricking through the religion is very lovely.

Early Christianity were already being killed for there beliefs.

Same with every new religion, but if the slave thing was in there, it would be thrown out... Cuz that would've been unrealistic. It would be like saying that in the modern day electricity was a sin. yea it wouldnt go over well.

Your saying he had to tell people it was okay. So clearly he didn't kill thew slavers off. The Bible in both old and new testaments clearly condones slavery that's what's there.

He didn't kill the slavers, but he made life as harsh as possible and gave them treatment back. Im just saying the guy hypocrited himself within 2 points right after each other. thats all.

Something your God would have known would happen and just let happen raising the question why he would let things go that far in the first place.

Well considering free will, i mean its kinda hypocritical to go back on your word, and start puppeteering everybody around right? What should he have done? Locked em all in cages untill they behaved? i think thats torture thow.. Or should he have yelled at them from the sky? That would definately show them a very good hard taught lesson.

Kill or be killed is defiantly a different case all together.

Well i meant to say was basically killing evil. But i thought to myself zombies sounded awesome.. Nvm they dont. Anyways its killing evil, and keeping the last remaining good on earth alive.

The numbers here don't really matter his answer to the problem was mass genocide.

Or the destruction of evil... People take this crap to seriously.. It stories based on destroying evil, and keeping the good alive. Thats what its about... But again athiests feel the need to give that little extra push now and again =)

There are actually many who disagree with the death penalty. It is a clearly imperfect solution to a problem and a supreme being should be able to come up with better.

Putting them all in a cage for 50 yrs would be a pretty good idea i guess. But thats alot of people. I think i would've rathered just die to be honest.

You started your argument with "I'm disregarding this because of the way the person looked" That right there hurts what ever you had to say after that. But since you don't seem to want to drop I will oblige you on this one, even though I don't think your worth it at this point.

I made a mistake. I meant to say im disturbed. not disregarding. Critical mistake, and i understand sorta where ur coming from. The fact you dont think im worth it, is because im making fun of the only evidence you givin out on these threads. You finally got to understand what every christian faces, and now you know how it feels... To just have what you put out there disregarded because of first impressions.

MageGrayWolf
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I made a mistake. I meant to say im disturbed. not disregarding. Critical mistake, and i understand sorta where ur coming from.


In this case I apologize for my first reaction to your post. But this could have been cleared up a lot sooner if you had just said that in the first place. I don't have the energy right now to go through and reply to your whole post, but I'll get back to it later if someone doesn't beat me to it first.
adios194
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adios194
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Nomad

This refers to how Jesus died for your sins. By accepting this your accepting the punishment of an innocent for anothers guilt.

He also chose to so christians could be in heaven for all eternity.
This is in reference to hell. an infinite punishment for a finite transgression is clearly a disproportionate punishment. This is made even worse when you consider you have to have an innocent punished in your place or receive this disproportionate punishment.

Everyone has the chance to ask forgiveness, thus you have a chance to not go to hell.
again your just making excuses and trying to shift the blame. You can't claim this to be the word of God then turn around and claim the parts you don't agree with are because of human error. I will agree that it has been messed with in a number of ways but this only puts the validity of the entire thing into questions not just parts.

Mage, how am I shifting the blame? I said that the majority of the bible has the chance to be opinions, not only the parts I disagree with.
i watched this video, and i am now officially gonna have nightmares about the creepy man lady, and her manly horrendous lipstick and creepy slick backed greaser hairstyle. So that is basically enough for me to kinda disregard his/her... screw it..

lol
I really didn't feel like reading your whole arguement above.
BeastMode10
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BeastMode10
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Nomad

but I'll get back to it later if someone doesn't beat me to it first


Urgh, I'll suppose I'll do it...

Every single athiest ive known gets starts there defence with "the website is clearly biased"..


Key point: "ive known". This indicates that your implication derives from beliefs, which is not neccessarily true. Not all Atheists begin their arguments with...whatever you said.

And if this kid wasn't so judgemental, biased, know all and be all of everything possible, then i wouldnt talk crap about him?


PLZ, clean up your grammer. It sounds terrible. First off, that's insulting, and secondly, I don't know who your talking about, nor can I determine what you're trying to say.

cuz im tired of this relentless attacks trying to disprove christianity, and shake peoples believes


If you forfeit, wave the white flag, and be proud. It's really aggravating when Christians walk away with their heads held high, when we've already beaten their assumptions down.

Its semi immature, and extremely annoying


A formal debate, of which the atheist endeavor to maintain, is non immature. It's only annoying, probably because you're losing.

False. Its like a kid constantly breaking curfew, constantly stealing, and constantly getting into trouble and never ever repenting, asking for forgiveness, or apologizing for the crimes he's commiting


Mage's 'kid' (figuratevely speaking, and assuming you were replying to Mage), has the life of eternity, symbolized by the eternity that Christians believe that unorthodox individuals spend in hell. The unorthodoxy is represented by the 'small misbehavior', which is the individual's unorthodox behavior during their time on Earth. Your 'kid', as dictated by your description, would essentially be unorthodoxy throughout their 'eriod in hell', which....doesn't exactly make sense, as God's judgment for unorthodoxy occurs during the individuals life span in Earth.

The point is, your representation doesn't make sense, and doesn't relate to Mage's initial argument.

well i guess it sucks for you if he exists huh =/


Sort of irrelevent, and doesn't act as a proper counterargument. Mage's point still stands (It's Mage your talking to right??), that an all intelligent, all caring God wouldn't subject a questioning and reasonable individual to eternity in punishment, just for incompliance.

Like someone jumping onto a grenade to save others around them in a war


In most situations, that won't diminish the blast radius of the grenade.

The point I'm making is that having some dude die on a cross cannot possibly affect the morality of the entirety of society. It's impossible, and extremely imprudent of any son of an omniscient God to do something irrational like that.

Were part of the same family


As in like, we (all species) all have a common ancestor, I would agree.

Considering everyone is decendants of Adam and Eve


That...on the other hand, is highly debatable, and quite possible misleading.

I think its understandable to be that angry


I thought Dog was supposed to be omnipotent AND omniscient?

It would be like saying that in the modern day electricity was a sin


I really don't understand your connection, here. Again, without sufficient counter-debate-ness, Mage's point stands: That an omnipotent Dog would find a way to prevent the intentional destruction of its own people.

He didn't kill the slavers, but he made life as harsh as possible and gave them treatment back. Im just saying the guy hypocrited himself within 2 points right after each other. thats all.


I'm lost. I really cannot understand your logic. PLEASE elucidate.

Well considering free will, i mean its kinda hypocritical to go back on your word, and start puppeteering everybody around right? What should he have done? Locked em all in cages untill they behaved? i think thats torture thow.. Or should he have yelled at them from the sky? That would definately show them a very good hard taught lesson.


You probably don't understand Mage's point. Dog could have done something ingenuitive and omnipotent that would prevent mankind from disobeying. But nooooo, he had to let Adam and Eve run wild, which apparently results in mankind's 'corruption', which is reflected in today's society as crime, death, etc.

Well i meant to say was basically killing evil. But i thought to myself zombies sounded awesome.. Nvm they dont. Anyways its killing evil, and keeping the last remaining good on earth alive.


Why didn't he finish off Bush, then? Why does evil run amock in todays society....AND DONT give me the crud about 'oh, adam eve ate the apple (or whatever they did), so it's clearly mankind's fault' because again, an omnipotent and omniscient God would never allow that to happen.

Or the destruction of evil... People take this crap to seriously.. It stories based on destroying evil, and keeping the good alive


So your saying that mass genocide is 'good', because it kills off 'evil people', am I correct?

But again athiests feel the need to give that little extra push now and again =)


Oh really? Maybe if you grew a conscious.....[rantrantrant]

Never mind.

Putting them all in a cage for 50 yrs would be a pretty good idea i guess. But thats alot of people. I think i would've rathered just die to be honest.


You don't understand the objective. (Once again...). And as usual, Mage's point STILL stands: Why didn't an intelligent designer develop a better punishment than death, if he was omnipotent/scious?

I made a mistake. I meant to say im disturbed. not disregarding. Critical mistake, and i understand sorta where ur coming from


Chales Darwin was actually disturbed at the numerous quantity of evidence he found during his voyage on the SS Beagle that contradicted that of Christian views. The same man that pretty much uprooted the Christian community was once an advocate.

Just take a single step into the world of questioning, and you'll begin to understand the purpose of atheism.

The fact you dont think im worth it, is because im making fun of the only evidence you givin out on these threads


only evidence...I almost scoffed at that one.

You finally got to understand what every christian faces, and now you know how it feels..


Most Christians face the fear of punishment in hell. Again, Charles Darwin faced that same fear, but through enlightenment on the SS Beagle, he began to turn to the truth.

To just have what you put out there disregarded because of first impressions.


Hmmm...That was deep....(sortofkindofnotreally) >_<

Please don't assume that Atheists argue based on prejudice, because that would make yourself as prejudiced as you assume others to be.
BeastMode10
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BeastMode10
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Nomad

He also chose to so christians could be in heaven for all eternity.


As I've said, HOW can some human being's death possibly alter the morality of society as a whole, in a positive way that would allow access to heaven? It doesn't make any sense in the face of logic and reality.

Everyone has the chance to ask forgiveness, thus you have a chance to not go to hell.


DANG IT! You missing the entire point!

Okay, so the point of punishment is so that people don't repeat the mistake of the matyre, right?

So God's purpose for using hell as punishment would be so that unorthodox individuals will be afraid of maintaining unorthodoxy, right?

And the only way an individual can learn from his mistake is if he can redeem himself AFTER the punishment, right?

Which evidently cannot happen, as hell is supposed to be infinite, agreed?

So why would God subject mankind to a punishment that:

1) May not exist, or whose existence is very questionable.
2) Mankind as individuals, cannot learn from, at least individually, and
3) Punishes individuals who are 'unorthodox', which if you actually think about it, is synonymous with questioning, and therefore, curious, and therefore, ingenuitive, and possibly highy intelligent.

WHY
samy
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samy
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Nomad

So God's purpose for using hell as punishment


Wrong sir!

Hell was created as a domain for Lucifer and the other fallen angels because they had sinned against God and were no longer pure and could not remain in his presence. Once sin entered the world humans were condemned to hell because God cannot be around sin and sin cannot be around God. In fact it says in the bible that hell well be a relief compared to the shame and agony you will feel in God's presence with sin.
wajor59
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wajor59
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Nomad

Great walls 'O text! Mage, I think you deserve a break.

I'm not surprised nor should you be that no one has yet to put the Bible to the test as "Zinnia Jones" did in the video.

#1 Global Genocide (w/biblical flood of Genesis & Noah). Let's go back to my previous post which wasn't far from the point of origin of this decay of humanity.
I'll start by answering 'Zinnia's' question: "One of the most confusing aspects of this story is how literally everyone on earth could be so evil; they were all deserving of death?"

I could sum it up to one word, obedience.

God created man and woman to think for themselves, not little babies to be raised, nursed, etc. God created full grown adults.
God walked with them in Eden and were told of the two trees in the center of the garden were off limits and why.
Satan was there, tempted Eve, who in turn offered the fruit, (not an apple because apples don't come from that region), to Adam.

Hence the fall of man,(fall from God's grace). Curses were placed on Adam, Eve and satan.
Later, they had two sons, the first Cain and the second Abel. Abel was obedient to God by bringing the first born fatted lamb. Cain disobeyed by offering some of the fruits of the soil to God, but the text does not say it was Cain's best.

Cain commits murder and is banned from the land where Abel shed his blood at the hand of Cain.
Cain goes to Nod, east of Eden. (Nod means wandering)
There, at Nod, Cain takes a wife.

skip to Genesis 4:25, Eve gives birth to Seth.
Jesus' ancestry is traced back to Adam and Eve through Seth's descendants, not Cain's.

On to Noah, Genesis, chapter 10. I don't have my Bible in front of me so I'll go by memory:
There were three types of men mentioned in this chapter. Giants, I can't remember the name, men of Man and men of God.

Scholars still like to argue where the giants come from but this could have been the 'mark' placed on Cain when he was banished.
Regardless, these men and men of man were marrying the daughters of the men of God. Things were very bad.

Let's pause a minute and reflect on previous events. God created people with different personalities, free-thinkers, and Adam was intelligent enough to name every bird, creature that swam, walked, slithered, etc. and named the plants, and Eve, all of their children.
These children aren't named in the Bible. Some of Cain's children are named in the Bible though.
Anyway, God could have simply pulled out His eraser and made everything disappear.
He didn't and He's already proved His love for His creation and especially people since He placed us above the angels, above the rest of His earthly creations.

God demands obedience, he doesn't ask us for it! Hence commandments, not requests. God isn't a man, He doesn't answer to man. Who are we to question the acts of God? Furthermore He didn't wipe all of humanity off the face of the earth!

#2 "The Premeditated Murder of Children" 'Zinnia' uses the Exodus story that describes the total annihilation of first-born males.

Pharaoh had been warned and plagued until God had to prove that His people would be set free. The window of questioning the power of God was over and along with it the window of opportunity for Pharaoh to renounce his false gods and worship the God of Israel.

The Jews were spared this curse of death by painting blood above the doors of all of their homes. Today this is still called 'the Passover' because the angel of death passed over the Children of God.

#3 The Failure to Condemn Slavery.

One word: obedience.

Men created the institute of slavery, not God. Roman guards were converted because of Paul's incarceration.
The Bible isn't written to entertain us, it's a blueprint of how God expects His people to control our natural desire to sin.

#4 The Imposition of Hereditary Guilt
Jesus' replaces this guilt. He doesn't desire that anyone should feel guilt of any type. The choice is ours. Some people choose to spend 40 years wandering around the same mountain. It's totally unnecessary today.

#5 The Acceptance of Vicarious Punishment
Being punished for sins my great-grandfather did is no longer needed when Jesus shed His blood for the sin of every human, once and for all.

#6 The Sanctioning of Infinite Punishment

I stand firm in my belief that "one day, every knee shall bow and every mouth shall confess that Jesus is Lord of Lord's and King of King's!
You don't have to believe it but I know it will happen regardless because the Bible doesn't lie. I may learn a little something new every time I read it and I may scratch my head and jot down a page full of questions.
God is always faithful to answer every question I've put before Him.

MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Mage's 'kid' (figuratevely speaking, and assuming you were replying to Mage), has the life of eternity, symbolized by the eternity that Christians believe that unorthodox individuals spend in hell. The unorthodoxy is represented by the 'small misbehavior', which is the individual's unorthodox behavior during their time on Earth. Your 'kid', as dictated by your description, would essentially be unorthodoxy throughout their 'eriod in hell', which....doesn't exactly make sense, as God's judgment for unorthodoxy occurs during the individuals life span in Earth.


Thanks for taking over and you summed up my analogy quite well.

I will just touch on a few things here.

Every single athiest ive known gets starts there defence with "the website is clearly biased".. Therefore its an ad hominem...


There are actually good reasons for dismissing the various Christian websites it's because they are just full of the same tired arguments that have already been thoroughly debunked time and time again. Often using nothing more then quote mines, straw mans, and out and out lies that are dressed up and presented as "evidence". Presenting those sites as evidence only hurts your position.

And to be clear I wasn't using that video as evidence but rather a point of reference to illustrate what I was saying (which is the case of virtually all the vids I have used). I started with the supposition that if God is in fact real and has done what is written in the Bible, is that being worth worshiping? So what does the Bible illustrate this being doing?
It shows a whole laundry list of atrocities that any alone should leave this being unworthy of being worshiped. Yet you excuse this behavior saying it was for the best. Looking at the replies on this subject the battered wife syndrome that Christians seem to suffer from this concept of God become glaringly apparent.

...and that became a much longer rant then I intended.

Same with every new religion, but if the slave thing was in there, it would be thrown out... Cuz that would've been unrealistic. It would be like saying that in the modern day electricity was a sin.


Your comparing the oppression and in many cases abuse of another human being to the use of electricity? Acceptable or not to the masses if God saw this action as wrong then it should have been added in as God stating it to be wrong. Also (again assume the unlikely that his being is real) if God had done so he could have put a stop to it much sooner. Instead he had help create a tool that out right promoted it and was used to justify this action for years.

Or the destruction of evil... People take this crap to seriously.. It stories based on destroying evil, and keeping the good alive.


And the destruction of countless babies and animals and...Or was it all babies and all but two of every animal also evil? Just wanted to point out the scope of this genocide.

Well considering free will, i mean its kinda hypocritical to go back on your word, and start puppeteering everybody around right?


Don't hand me that free will tripe. If someone really cares about another they are going to step in and try to stop them from doing something they see as harmful.
Thinking about it where in the Bible does it say God won't interfere with free will? Because he seems to do it a whole heck of a lot interfering in the Bible.

To just have what you put out there disregarded because of first impressions.


Again as stated it's not a matter of first impressions. We have seen these arguments before and seen this stuff already debunked. So your entire effort here is pointless.

Mage, how am I shifting the blame? I said that the majority of the bible has the chance to be opinions, not only the parts I disagree with.


Then how can you consider any of it valid unless you're picking out certain parts in it?

God cannot be around sin and sin cannot be around God. In fact it says in the bible that hell well be a relief compared to the shame and agony you will feel in God's presence with sin.


Considering Christianity states no one is without sin this creates a huge problem here. If God is able to remove this "sin" then he should be able to do it for everyone thus having to send anyone to hell becomes pointless and cruel.

God demands obedience, he doesn't ask us for it!


Okay I'm just going to stop right here in you rambling (and I'm saying rambling because non of that answers the questions). So far you seem to be making a point about free will but if God really wanted us to obey this kind of goes against the concept of free will. Now I know you may want to argue that God wanted us to do this freely but considering we are talking about a being who already knew this wouldn't happen making God seem kind of stupid here. He could have easily just instilled an overpowering desire to obey him into everyone so that while we would still be free no to obey we wouldn't want to.

Who are we to question the acts of God?


I would questions the acts of anyone who would consider mass genocide as a good solution to a problem.

Furthermore He didn't wipe all of humanity off the face of the earth!


He left 8 people and 2 of each animal alive and killed the rest how humane of him...

Pharaoh had been warned and plagued until God had to prove that His people would be set free. The window of questioning the power of God was over and along with it the window of opportunity for Pharaoh to renounce his false gods and worship the God of Israel.

The Jews were spared this curse of death by painting blood above the doors of all of their homes. Today this is still called 'the Passover' because the angel of death passed over the Children of God.


How does any of this justify the killing of children?

Men created the institute of slavery, not God. Roman guards were converted because of Paul's incarceration.
The Bible isn't written to entertain us, it's a blueprint of how God expects His people to control our natural desire to sin.


Again this doesn't cover anything. Unless your trying to say the parts about slavery were inserted by humans without anything to do with God. Which goes against this part of your post.
the Bible doesn't lie.


Jesus' replaces this guilt. He doesn't desire that anyone should feel guilt of any type. The choice is ours. Some people choose to spend 40 years wandering around the same mountain. It's totally unnecessary today.


Not talking about feeling guilty but being blamed which bleeds into the next point.

Being punished for sins my great-grandfather did is no longer needed when Jesus shed His blood for the sin of every human, once and for all.


Neither of which should have been needed in the first place. The fact that God did require this only supports my argument.

God is always faithful to answer every question I've put before Him.


If these are the answers your getting I recommend asking someone else. Maybe my screw driver, I've had pretty good luck getting prayers posed to it answered and it's pretty handy when I need to tighten a loose screw. Bet God doesn't do that.
nonconformist
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Nomad

Key point: "ive known". This indicates that your implication derives from beliefs, which is not neccessarily true. Not all Atheists begin their arguments with...whatever you said.[/i]

negatory... not key point.. your key point enabling to take what i said out of my sentence into your own words, to make it on yourside.

PLZ, clean up your grammer. It sounds terrible. First off, that's insulting, and secondly, I don't know who your talking about, nor can I determine what you're trying to say.

your coming in halfway through a debate about mages video.. Expecting to understand everything. the fact is most stuff your arguementing on isn't even loosely based on the points im making, ill say that right now.. It was more of something between me and mage I guess.. And mostly it was because of the cockiness of the kid in the video.. That is the only reason i decided to dispute that vid...

Mage's 'kid' (figuratevely speaking, and assuming you were replying to Mage), has the life of eternity, symbolized by the eternity that Christians believe that unorthodox individuals spend in hell. The unorthodoxy is represented by the 'small misbehavior', which is the individual's unorthodox behavior during their time on Earth. Your 'kid', as dictated by your description, would essentially be unorthodoxy throughout their 'eriod in hell', which....doesn't exactly make sense, as God's judgment for unorthodoxy occurs during the individuals life span in Earth.
The point is, your representation doesn't make sense, and doesn't relate to Mage's initial argument.


Again coming in halfway through, doesn't help. But you basically got it all wrong. Were metaphorically speaking here, not about mages kid at all.... And yes it fully relates to his arguement.. Half your comments in this post alone basically don't relate to anything in this arguement.

Sort of irrelevent, and doesn't act as a proper counterargument. Mage's point still stands (It's Mage your talking to right??), that an all intelligent, all caring God wouldn't subject a questioning and reasonable individual to eternity in punishment, just for incompliance.

k seriously dude... Im only gonna go through your arguements tonight, and then mages tomorow. But basically half of these have confused me to hell. You got everything backwards in this one to. Id do a facepalm but i understand coming into an arguement half the time, doesn't make much sense.. which is why this should kinda stop getting people to come into these things. Its annoying having 3 athiests backing each other up, when only one truely knows what the arguements about..

The point I'm making is that having some dude die on a cross cannot possibly affect the morality of the entirety of society. It's impossible, and extremely imprudent of any son of an omniscient God to do something irrational like that.

Thanks for proving the point sir. Because it was irrational for a son of a God to do it, God realized that there was good in the world and Jesus saw it. Which is why jesus saved us from our sins. =/ but of course not every high and mighty person out there would risk there life to save millions i guess.. Thats just irrational

That...on the other hand, is highly debatable, and quite possible misleading.

just like a bunch of the anti christianic crap i have to listen to every time a read these threads? awe that sucks eh

I thought Dog was supposed to be omnipotent AND omniscient?

Well my dog thinks she is, but im thinking she'll learn her lesson eventually.

I really don't understand your connection, here. Again, without sufficient counter-debate-ness, Mage's point stands: That an omnipotent Dog would find a way to prevent the intentional destruction of its own people.

dude can u stop saying his point still stands? like really congrats, im pretty sure every point out there stands, concidering points dont bend. Like i feel like im starting to hear an echo in this thread, 4 or 5 times over now. First you put 2 different things together, and then mingled them up... Dogs dont kill there own kind either. It was about Slavery being something god endorsed, which is still being up for debate, because you mingled 2 different things together and formed a nice lil stew in the middle of a post.

I'm lost. I really cannot understand your logic. PLEASE elucidate.

dude you just really shouldn't of posted.. unless you fully understood these arguements. im done arguing over this when you dont have the concepts. the he is the guy in teh video btw

Chales Darwin was actually disturbed at the numerous quantity of evidence he found during his voyage on the SS Beagle that contradicted that of Christian views. The same man that pretty much uprooted the Christian community was once an advocate.
Just take a single step into the world of questioning, and you'll begin to understand the purpose of atheism.

hmm sounds almost like a jehovah witness preaching. as for purpose? there is none other than shutting of the spiritual side of your soul, body, and brain. good purpose

only evidence...I almost scoffed at that one.

i guess saying show me proof is evidence now.

Most Christians face the fear of punishment in hell. Again, Charles Darwin faced that same fear, but through enlightenment on the SS Beagle, he began to turn to the truth.

no most christians fear god. wrong statement. and unless he turned to the wwall of truth (which only bruce wayne has) i say false advertising.

Hmmm...That was deep....(sortofkindofnotreally) >_<
Please don't assume that Atheists argue based on prejudice, because that would make yourself as prejudiced as you assume others to be.


Then y do u argue. your trying to falsify a religion based on your beliefs... in science. its cute, and its kinda a d'ck move. so yea sorry bud but thats how people take it.

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