ForumsWEPR[redirected]If God created all things

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DrCool1
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DrCool1
210 posts
Bard

Here is something to get the brain going. It's been said that God created ALL things. Also it's been said that God is 100 precent pure/good. So God created man and it was said that because of man's sinful actions bad/evil things were created. But if God created ALL things then God created bad/evil things, not man. So by God creating bad/evil things this does not make him 100 precent pure/good.

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Nurvana
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Nurvana
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Otherwise any belief based on faith is irrational.

While on some level I agree with this, I think the better position is to hold that certain people can have rational beliefs about God. There are plenty of people with amazing personal experiences of God's love and a deep relationship with Him.
While I fully believe these experiences aren't real, it's impossible to convince these people that their feelings are wrong.
So they have a belief about God, and they have reasons (justification) for their beliefs. Ultimately these are faith-based beliefs, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they're irrational.
Now, those who blindly accept the notion of God without any evidence and who follow whatever pastor happens to be ranting at the time - these people, I think we can all agree, are irrational.

To many my personal beliefs are far more irrational than those of the church
Agreed, they are irrational.

To adios:
Statements like this (calling MageGreyWolf's beliefs irrational) is bullyish, offensive, and just plain wrong. He clearly is an intelligent person and produces cogent arguments.
If you're just going to hard-line the discussion and ignore all beliefs that contradict your own, then go somewhere else. This is a place for enlightened discussion, not bigoted hate-mongering or flaming.
It's oblivious Christians such as yourself that can't even imagine a different point of view that make me want to punch people right in the middle of the face.
Either join in the actual discussion at hand or GTFO.


hey but look at me! So plz don't judge Christians
wolf1991
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wolf1991
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Farmer

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

adios194
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adios194
818 posts
Nomad

Now, the arguement I have proposed does not require me to present any evidence on my behalf for what I have proposed is mere hypothetical thinking, something to engage you into setting aside the passion that is your belief and for once to think rationally. Until you truly adress my arguement instead of these underhanded, round about personal attacks I have nothing to prove or disprove.

You are asking for evidence but as I stated, you have yet to provide some for your own. I haven't attacked you personally, but if you want to use that as a scape goat, then go ahead.
To adios:
Statements like this (calling MageGreyWolf's beliefs irrational) is bullyish, offensive, and just plain wrong. He clearly is an intelligent person and produces cogent arguments.
If you're just going to hard-line the discussion and ignore all beliefs that contradict your own, then go somewhere else. This is a place for enlightened discussion, not bigoted hate-mongering or flaming.
It's oblivious Christians such as yourself that can't even imagine a different point of view that make me want to punch people right in the middle of the face.
Either join in the actual discussion at hand or GTFO.

If you actually read who left that comment you would see that is wasn't mage. I see where your coming from, but please read before stating something that wasn't needed, and was clearly wrong. So either figure out what the discussion truly is or GTFO.
However, I have been begging for a response to a proposed arguement I have made. Instead of adressing what I am arguing he demands proof and resorts to personal attacks.

I will not stoop as low as to resort to personal attacks. I have addressed your argument multiple times, and you have yet to back it up.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.

I am pretty sure that Nurvana is trying to say don't sterotype.
wolf1991
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wolf1991
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Farmer

My arguement has already been stated that Lucifer may not be as "evil" as the religious perceive this character to be because the bible is a form of propaganda. Many (of course) disagree with this, but I wonder if they simple disagree because they are so bound in their beliefs instead of truly considering the proposal I offered a few pages back.
Throughout history those deemed free thinkers have been condemned for their beliefs. And yet those of the religious community always wonder why they are met with hostility on some accounts. The Christiandom throughout history is one of totalitarianism where anything that goes against the church must be subdued, destroyed, obliterated. The church (especially in the Dark Ages) would have the world, or at least their believers, submit to their creed as mindless sheep. Various sects of Christianity have banned pieces of great literature because it either "criticized" or "demonized" the church. So once again I offer my proposal, my arguement:
Is Lucifer truly evil? How can this character be truly evil if god, in all knowledge brought this to be? God brought about the rebelion and is the rebelion a terrible thing? Rebelions are often (not always) held to overthrow a tyrant, someone who would oppress the masses. Perhaps Lucifer is not how he is painted. The bible may very well be the greatest propaganda in human history.
I urge to to lay aside your belief and truly consider what I am saying. Judge with the mind of reason and not the mind of faith. For reason stems from logic and logic cannot be subjected to the heart, for then the judgements are clouded by passion. Belief is that passion.


HERE is my arguement. I have made a proposal! I have proposed this thought! I have defended this idea! And when did you ever adress this?
samy
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samy
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Nomad

HERE is my arguement. I have made a proposal! I have proposed this thought! I have defended this idea! And when did you ever adress this?


Didn't we go through this already somewhere in the nineties? :P

First of all we cannot compare a supernatural event to a natural one with slightly hinders the foundation of your argument. Secondly as Lucifer was cast onto the Earth (which is a metaphor for sin) I believe that he was in fact evil believing, of course, that God is absolute good.
Secondly I'm wholly against the church as a whole and believe that it should be formed only in small pockets and not be presided over by anyone but God and I agree that it's record is terrible.
As my reason is my faith I cannot lay one aside and still have the other so I can't fulfill that request.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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While on some level I agree with this, I think the better position is to hold that certain people can have rational beliefs about God. There are plenty of people with amazing personal experiences of God's love and a deep relationship with Him.
While I fully believe these experiences aren't real, it's impossible to convince these people that their feelings are wrong.
So they have a belief about God, and they have reasons (justification) for their beliefs. Ultimately these are faith-based beliefs, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they're irrational.


I see what your talking about but I would still say it's still at least a bit irrational since there personal experience either isn't or can't be verified to themselves or others. The rational thing would be to further investigate the the event and try to find the most likely cause. If one can't be found we would have to put it in the "I'm not entirely sure what happened" category rather then jumping to fantastic conclusions that could likely be wrong. This doesn't discount the event, it just doesn't add more then what was really there. This also doesn't stop use from being able to form hypotheses as to what happened either.

that God is absolute good.


So far the evidence would seem to be contrary to this.

As my reason is my faith I cannot lay one aside and still have the other so I can't fulfill that request.


So you can't step back and try to see things from a different perspective?
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
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Blacksmith

I would happily argue that it is, in fact, irrational to believe in something that you cannot prove, otherwise this is called faith and faith has no basis in fact. There is nothing wrong with faith, I have plenty, but I have NO faith in religion.

And one more thing I would like to point out, "A house divided against itself can not stand". That comes from the Bible, ironically, as Christianity is a house divided against itself. If your god is true, then why is there so many divisions of Christianity?


This is a quality quote. And so very true. Just look at Islam and Christianity, divided and bickering over who's path is actually following gods true will.

I kicked the fence over a long tyme ago, now my path is clear and I can see all the nutters in the mental asylum.
wolf1991
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wolf1991
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Didn't we go through this already somewhere in the nineties? :P


In a sense, however, I am not asking those who believe in god to put aside their faith for a moment and to judge my arguement with a rational mind instead of one guided by pasion because I feel my arguement was not truly considered.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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There is nothing wrong with faith


In a way I kind of agree with you here. Faith alone I see as being at least a bit useless and irrational. What becomes an issue is how it's used, much like many things.
wolf1991
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wolf1991
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Farmer

Faith is good to have, but when one puts faith into things that cloud one's very judgement of the world around them, then problems occur.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Faith is good to have,


How is believing in something without any proof a good thing?
wolf1991
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wolf1991
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Farmer

Faith provides hope. Hope is a good thing, yet should your faith in something be all consuming then it is bad. One needs a mixture of faith and rationality in equal measure. To use a personal example: I am an aspiring writer and I have a good deal of faith in my talent and ability, but I am not so consumed by my belief that I think I am better than I truly am.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Faith provides hope. Hope is a good thing, yet should your faith in something be all consuming then it is bad. One needs a mixture of faith and rationality in equal measure. To use a personal example: I am an aspiring writer and I have a good deal of faith in my talent and ability, but I am not so consumed by my belief that I think I am better than I truly am.


I see what your saying though you can have hope but still hold out until evidence presents itself. Like with your example of having faith in your writing. The material you produce is evidence of your talent and ability. You can still hope to be better or even believe you can become better, but even this can be based on evidence of past experience with not just you writing but from what others have gone through.
Rangersoul5
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Rangersoul5
186 posts
Nomad

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

thats what i told my friends!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so its like he kills people..example..

He created hitler.

hitler killed millions of people.
gods fault

although god is ownage

BeastMode10
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BeastMode10
374 posts
Nomad

Faith is an excellent source of motivation and a stimulus of endeavor in certain circumstances, but blind faith is irrational, and leads to dire consequences most of the time.

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