Is doing something good for want of avoiding punishment, truly a good dead or a selfish deed?
It really could be both as people are typically driven to action by multiple stimuli. Just because one motivating factor is the avoidance of negative consequences, that does not mean that there are no selfless motivators at work as well.
Also, I really think this was already covered in the altruism thread a few weeks ago.
Was it, I was discussing this last night, so decided just make a thread for it.
I see what you mean by the different stimuli, however in cases like this for the majority it's because people have had the belief that if they aren't good they will go to hell.
I disagree with you on that. People who believe in hell also tend to believe in a God which will forgive them if they telepathically apologize, so what's the motivation to be good if all you have to do when you mess up is apologize to God?
Not traditionally they don't, no. But go around and ask your average church-goer and see what they think on the subject, especially regarding forgiveness of their own sins. People don't believe in religious traditions like forgiveness of sins and such because it's reasonable, they believe in it because it makes them feel better.
I see what you mean by the different stimuli, however in cases like this for the majority it's because people have had the belief that if they aren't good they will go to hell.
That is why I go around molesting kids, blowing up abortion clinics, and murdering people who don't agree with me. In fact, a guy just looked at me funny. Give me a second...There. That is finished. Since you obviously can't have any morality without an imaginary friend, look at all those evil atheists... A whole %0.2 or so of the prison population are atheists, so this must be true! Especially compared to the number of atheists in America, statistically making less percentage of atheists in prison than Christians! ....
Not all sects of Christianity follow that belief. As far as I know only Catholicism allows full forgiveness simply from confession.
As far as I know, every Christian belief has the "BELIEVE IN ME OR DIE" clause which gives them a free pass to heaven.
Belief isn't necessarily being forgiven. Also I hardly doubt that a good who turned a woman into salt, is as forgiving as to pardon a pedophile or a serial killer without a blink.
I am saying atheists are just as moral as people with belief. If not more.
Belief isn't necessarily being forgiven. Also I hardly doubt that a good who turned a woman into salt, is as forgiving as to pardon a pedophile or a serial killer without a blink.
It was a comment on your "good or go to hell" belief, I am merely stating that that belief seems to be absent.
Have you even bothered to read the OP, its asking are theists being selfish or benevolent. I haven't said a thing about atheism...
You said "I see what you mean by the different stimuli, however in cases like this for the majority it's because people have had the belief that if they aren't good they will go to hell.", which is typically used by theist to suggest that they are more moral. Just needed to put this out there before a Ninja comes and finds it...
And before I forget, here is Kohlberg's scale of moral development.
Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)
1. Obedience and punishment orientation
(How can I avoid punishment?)
2. Self-interest orientation
(What's in it for me?)
Level 2 (Conventional)
3. Interpersonal accord and conformity
(Social norms) (The good boy/good girl attitude)
4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation
(Law and order morality)
Level 3 (Post-Conventional)
5. Social contract orientation 6. Universal ethical principles
(Principled conscience)
The one your talking about is the least advanced, typically used in young children. I just wanted to find this before stating this...
In my opinion a belief in a reward after death is a poor incentive for moral behavior while alive. Plus we have to consider that religious rules are usually quite lenient.
Now on your question, when a Religious person does a good act, it is never selfless. In general though human's actions aren't totally selfless. Actions, ceteris paribus, are -to some varying extent- motivated by a concern for one's own interest and advantage. Nonetheless the fact that they are selfish doesn't compulsory mean that they aren't sympathetic. Sure its more like a "duty" for them, they have a moral obligation towards a specific individual (e.g. a God), but they are still potentially kind persons.
Bottom line persons are selfish, yet compassionate.
"I see what you mean by the different stimuli, however in cases like this for the majority it's because people have had the belief that if they aren't good they will go to hell."
Simple way to find out. If God proclaimed tomorrow (through vision, Vatican, usual indirect muddled ways) that r@ping and killing children was the moral thing to do, or some equally repulsive act. Would most theists go do it? If they would then their morals are just obedience based. If they wouldn't there is more to their morals then just the obedience.
Simple way to find out. If God proclaimed tomorrow (through vision, Vatican, usual indirect muddled ways) that r@ping and killing children was the moral thing to do, or some equally repulsive act. Would most theists go do it? If they would then their morals are just obedience based. If they wouldn't there is more to their morals then just the obedience.
We don't even need to do that. We already have numerous passages in the Bible in which followers of Christianity are told to do things which they don't, such as gouging out their eyes or cutting off their hands if these body parts are involved in sin. While it may not be an external moral choice, it is a matter of personal morals and values. It is quite clear that even the most devout of Christians don't get all of their morals from their religion, which negates the entire concept that morality is from God.
About rape and religion, I remember that theologian argued that rape, though sinful, was much less intolerable than masturbation. Also I find extremely interesting that during the colonisation of the Americas, the rape of indigen women was not held to be an offence under Spanish Law as the persons in question were Pagan and not Christian.
