ForumsWEPRFLDS children taken away

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DragonMistress
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DragonMistress
1,060 posts
Blacksmith

This news story has been all over the news recently, and I was wondering how other people viewed it. If you dont know, the short of it is that 400 children were taken away from their parents in Texas, all part of a Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints group.

It is a polygamist group, but the main debate is whether or not CPS (Child Protective Services) did the right thing in separating the children from the parents while the studies were being done. CPS believes they have enough evidence to show that there is a systematic abuse of these children and the children need to be separated from the parents, while those against the actions say that there is more harm done separating the children than leaving them with the parents for the duration, since no 'grooming' (for abuse, or allowing the abuse) can be done in the short period of time.

I was just wondering what other people thought of this. I have my own opinion from what I read, but Ill keep that back for a bit.

A few links for more info:




Obviously some of these are biased, but they give some of the facts better than I can. Also, feel free to add to/correct my facts, most of my info was from the sections I've heard on the radio the past few days.

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Strop
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Strop
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Bard

Ah yes, here in Australia it's been all over the news and particular the radio.

The various media stations that I access have stayed spectacularly neutral on the topic, only going as far as to cite primary sources: a spokesperson for the FLDS, and a spokesperson for the CPS, plus one or two editorials from independent experts. I, too, can only stay neutral as there are relatively few precedents and I'm not privy to the actual material under contention.

That is to say, I'd want to know more about how 'abuse' was defined, and how the evidence is indicative of such, before I make commentary on cultural significance.

A similar case in recent Australian history would be the federal intervention strategies employed by the previous government shortly before the 2007 elections, regarding the quasi-systematic (or perhaps socially institutionalised) 'abuse' of children in indigenous communities. There are, of course, fundamental differences in these cases, but it was in the allegedly paternalistic manner of the interventions and the relation to the cultural history (i.e. recourse to the methods of the "Stolen Generations&quot that triggered the most debate.

This naturally brings up the question as to how laws should relate to communities in themselves, with all the cultural differences this entails. Is the CPS' treatment of the relevant parties within the FLDS overly 'aternalistic'? What rights should be granted over others? And exactly what rights should children, lacking moral agency, be granted?

garifu
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garifu
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Shepherd

It should be noted that many of the minors (i.e. under 18) are also mother themselves, news sources having identified 3/5 of them as pregnant or already with children [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7372485.stm]. That seems like a good reason to remove them. It seems, therefore, the most important prerogative is to remove the children within marrying age (again, 14-17) so that we can at least make certain no other "forced" marriages/consummations will occur.

As to the younger children, I think THAT separation is one that would deserve some debate, as the traumatic consequences may (or may not) outweigh the potential for abuse. This is where rights for parents and children would naturally enter the scene.

LiL_GaNgSta_BlAzE
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LiL_GaNgSta_BlAzE
2,283 posts
Jester

This has been on the new a lot hear, in Canada...(btw Im not going to say eh!)

But IMO I think that it's a good thing that the kids are being taken away from the parents while the studies are being done, Because i belive that most to all of the parents would threaten and fill there kids minds with somekinds of Mumbo Jumbo (LOL!)... And then the kids would not tell the truth, about what has been happning in that place, I mean the kids would be scared and presure from the parents would not give the police or the CPS what they need to way in on hard evidence.

kanethebrain
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kanethebrain
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Nomad

One of the issues I see here is the misogynistic attitudes of the cult leaders. When none of the girls are literate, are told they must marry their 'husbands' regardless of their wishes, and that they'll burn in hell if they resist, that's not a community. I think you could make a valid argument that the women in that cult were having their thirteenth amendment rights violated.

Not to mention that they believe that some of the girls are the daughters of the cult leaders, who are then marrying them to add to their harem.

Taking them away from these sickos is the best thing for all the children. Cults are notorious for killing off their own members to try and avoid justice, and I'm sure the State of Texas would rather figure out how to house and care for 400 children than bury 400 corpses. Not to mention the brainwashing that the kids are going under would only get worse after the raid.

DragonMistress
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DragonMistress
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Blacksmith

That is to say, I'd want to know more about how 'abuse' was defined, and how the evidence is indicative of such, before I make commentary on cultural significance.


The thing that seems so strange is that there seems to be minimal evidence that CPS found to take all the children away. And it was done within 3 days, which means there was *significant* evidence found... that has not been disclosed? Or that I have not heard.

As for abuse, they say that it is sexual. The females are groomed to be sexually abused and wed underage, as well as becoming mothers far too soon. For males, they are groomed to become the abusers. All of these are allegations as far as I have heard, I am very curious to hear how this all pans out.

Some people say that there is so much confusion within this group that children cannot identify their parents, whereas others are saying that grouping all the children together away from their parents is causing the confusion, because the outsiders cannot identify families. THe family systems here are very vague as well, seeing that there is one father to many mothers.... It is all so odd to see this still happening in this country.
Strategy_guy
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Strategy_guy
290 posts
Nomad

I think they should've waited a little bit longer befroe snatching them. If they had they could have a stronger case to present instead of theorys. They also could've avoided this confusen by getting everything ready for the kids and press and stuff.

On the case of if this was the right thing to do in my opinion abousoultly but this goes into beleifs of parents and the area/organization. To me it seems like being forced to accept christianity or some other religion when you don't agree with what that religion teaches/practises which as I said before is wrong.

So overall this is a good thing just could've been handled better.

Skipper8656568
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Skipper8656568
325 posts
Peasant

Sounds like scary I checked out the links I still don't understand it (is it Christian related ?)

Strop
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Strop
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Bard

That, I suppose, is rather debatable, Skipper. Most Christians would probably be quick to say that it patently isn't, but the name of the organisation is Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints. That said, I don't think this would be compatible with the ideologies of Mormons, either.

Now...

As for abuse, they say that it is sexual. The females are groomed to be sexually abused and wed underage, as well as becoming mothers far too soon. For males, they are groomed to become the abusers.


Far be it from my intention to play devil's advocate or even express a dissenting opinion, but I must warn against knee-jerk reactions that is so commonly expressed at the words "sexual abuse". That aside, even this is subject to the question of in what way the 'grooming' (again a term laden with connotations) is in preparation for something necessarily abusive.

In this case, I would generally go with what Kane's saying- if the allegations are broadly true, then the FLDS cannot be defined as a community so much as the playground for the desires and machinations of a small group of individuals. From this, even though I struggle to make categorical moral judgements, I would tend to conclude that the behavior is not justifiable on a number of grounds; additionally since the cost is becoming so great (again on a number of levels), it seems in the best interests of most parties to intervene. Now that the gears are in motion, it's also important that the process is completed.

Finally:

It is all so odd to see this still happening in this country.


Maybe from the perspective of the coverage that it has received. Ultimately though, situations similar to these on a number of levels are likely more common than you probably wish to think.
whatever
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whatever
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Nomad

I don't understand it all but I think it is right to take the children away from them.

Snakebite
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Snakebite
996 posts
Nomad

This wasn't something thats been goin on for only a few weeks, the reports of sexual abuse is YEARS old. That's why they took the kids now. As for the Mormon thing, they are NOT affiliated with the LDS Church anymore... They broke off over 100 years ago to practice polygamy. Mormons don't practice polygamy anymore.

DragonMistress
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DragonMistress
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Blacksmith

This has not been touched on for a while, and I was thinking today about how I had not heard anything about it for a while either. Well, this afternoon on my way home from work, I heard an update... 38 (or 32, I forget) mothers appealed the decision to get their children taken away, and they won! It seems that Child Protective Services treated this whole group of people as one family, and decided that if there was abuse in one family, they all should be taken away. Now, a few weeks later, more research has been done and it has been shown that there was no reason to take all these children away. The children of the mothers who appealed the decision were proven to have not suffered any abuse (other than that of being taken away from their families).

Has anyone else been following this, or have more information to add? For some reason, I find this greatly interesting; it probably has to do with my interest in child psychology.

chiliad_nodi
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chiliad_nodi
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Peasant

Right problem, wrong people. Your post tells me that there was no reason to take some of the children away. The children should be allowed to leave if they don't like it. If they can't, then they ask to be taken away. If they are fine though, its their religeon.

6862837
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6862837
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Nomad

wow this is bad kinda reminds me of hitler in a way

kanethebrain
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kanethebrain
242 posts
Nomad

@DragonMistress: I heard a report about it on NPR this afternoon myself. I don't think they actually found NO reason to take the children away, just insufficient legal reasons to take them away. You make a good point about them treating everyone as one family, although I can see how they would do that. I think CPS in this case had the best interests of the Children in mind, but they overstepped their bounds. In a community where 16 year olds are pregnant, 14 year olds are being married off, and men have multiple child brides, I can see how they'd think something was up.

Erako
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Erako
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Nomad

Yeah...that was a scary situation...did you know that it is a sin for them to laugh or have any fun? what a scary life..I saw the woman..and they looked like human meat puppets...they really scared me.

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