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Kevin4762

2,420 posts

Nomad

Posted February 6, '11 3:49am UTC

Can it really be considered a justice system if what you're doing is punishing the criminal? It is a punitive system more than a justice system.

Before you go on to say it it depends on what you call justice hear me out.

In plea bargains, both the defendant and prosecutor win, but not the victim. You would want the person who ***** you to be charged with violent sexual assault, not disrupting the peace or something like that. It is not justice if the victim does not benefit? He receives no closure.

In our punitive system, the criminal is not rehabilitated, but rather taught how to become a better criminal. In Norway, prisons are not prisons, but rehabilitation centres where people learn why what they did is wrong. In prison you are not taught what you did is wrong, but are encouraged to do activities such as participating clubs focusing on art, movies, and books. Even then, you are not forced to do anything.

Yes, I know I said in another thread that it is worse to rot in prison than to the death penalty, but it is even better to rehabilitate criminals more than both of those combined.

I am also not saying that clubs and classes in prisons should be removed, but I am asking for rehabilitation centres in prison. In the long run, it would be better since it would prevent repeat offenders and actually help society.

What do you guys think?

Can it really be considered a justice system if what you're doing is punishing the criminal? It is a punitive system more than a justice system.\r\n\r\nBefore you go on to say it it depends on what you call justice hear me out.\r\n\r\nIn plea bargains, both the defendant and prosecutor win, but not the victim. You would want the person who ***** you to be charged with violent sexual assault, not disrupting the peace or something like that. It is not justice if the victim does not benefit? He receives no closure.\r\n\r\nIn our punitive system, the criminal is not rehabilitated, but rather taught how to become a better criminal. In Norway, prisons are not prisons, but rehabilitation centres where people learn why what they did is wrong. In prison you are not taught what you did is wrong, but are encouraged to do activities such as participating clubs focusing on art, movies, and books. Even then, you are not forced to do anything.\r\n\r\nYes, I know I said in another thread that it is worse to rot in prison than to the death penalty, but it is even better to rehabilitate criminals more than both of those combined.\r\n\r\nI am also not saying that clubs and classes in prisons should be removed, but I am asking for rehabilitation centres in prison. In the long run, it would be better since it would prevent repeat offenders and actually help society.\r\n\r\nWhat do you guys think?

42 Replies

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BaronScot

66 posts

Nomad

Posted February 6, '11 1:58pm UTC

It is not justice if the victim does not benefit? He receives no closure

sounds like you are advocating for an eye for an eye style of justice. what type of benefit should the victim receive? they can always file a civil lawsuit.

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Aether

101 posts

Shepherd

Posted February 6, '11 4:43pm UTC

listening to Anti-Flag could be a good thing for you...

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Kyouzou

5,061 posts

Jester

Posted February 6, '11 5:13pm UTC

Money is not the answer to all problems. A **** victim is not going to receive closure knowing that their attacker is free to attempt to **** not only them, but others.

I agree with rehabilitation, however is it truly possible to know if a prisoner has understood the negative aspects of the consequences or do they simply wish to be set free?

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thisisnotanalt

9,821 posts

Farmer

Posted February 6, '11 5:42pm UTC

sounds like you are advocating for an eye for an eye style of justice. what type of benefit should the victim receive? they can always file a civil lawsuit.

One doesn't need to follow Hammurabi's code of law to get closure from the justice system. Kevin is talking about giving closure to the victim, but rehabilitating the criminal to also help society, which in no way operates on that principle.

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Kevin4762

2,420 posts

Nomad

Posted February 6, '11 6:12pm UTC

sounds like you are advocating for an eye for an eye style of justice. what type of benefit should the victim receive? they can always file a civil lawsuit.

If you read the rest of it, then you would know what my solution is.

listening to Anti-Flag could be a good thing for you...

Okay.

Money is not the answer to all problems. A **** victim is not going to receive closure knowing that their attacker is free to attempt to **** not only them, but others.

I never mentioned money.

I agree with rehabilitation, however is it truly possible to know if a prisoner has understood the negative aspects of the consequences or do they simply wish to be set free?

Yes, it is actually. There is a big difference between someone who wants to stab you and someone who wants to open the door for you when you walk in.

One doesn't need to follow Hammurabi's code of law to get closure from the justice system. Kevin is talking about giving closure to the victim, but rehabilitating the criminal to also help society, which in no way operates on that principle.

Best post so far.

[quote]sounds like you are advocating for an eye for an eye style of justice. what type of benefit should the victim receive? they can always file a civil lawsuit.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIf you read the rest of it, then you would know what my solution is.\r\n\r\n[quote]listening to Anti-Flag could be a good thing for you...\r\n[/quote]\r\n\r\nOkay.\r\n\r\n[quote]Money is not the answer to all problems. A **** victim is not going to receive closure knowing that their attacker is free to attempt to **** not only them, but others. [/quote]\r\n\r\nI never mentioned money.\r\n\r\n[quote]I agree with rehabilitation, however is it truly possible to know if a prisoner has understood the negative aspects of the consequences or do they simply wish to be set free?[/quote]\r\n\r\nYes, it is actually. There is a big difference between someone who wants to stab you and someone who wants to open the door for you when you walk in.\r\n\r\n[quote]One doesn't need to follow Hammurabi's code of law to get closure from the justice system.  Kevin is talking about giving closure to the victim, but rehabilitating the criminal to also help society, which in no way operates on that principle.[/quote]\r\n\r\nBest post so far.

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skarl

250 posts

Nomad

Posted February 6, '11 6:22pm UTC

many criminals have problems. they can be financially (no job, no education. so: let them go to school in prison.) psychologically, (many forms. if you thread it, they are a lot les likely to fall back.) drugs (addiction: let them rehab.) and many other problems. If you help this people to solve their problems, you can prevent many from falling back, rather than just locking them up.

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Kevin4762

2,420 posts

Nomad

Posted February 6, '11 6:24pm UTC

many criminals have problems. they can be financially (no job, no education. so: let them go to school in prison.) psychologically, (many forms. if you thread it, they are a lot les likely to fall back.) drugs (addiction: let them rehab.) and many other problems. If you help this people to solve their problems, you can prevent many from falling back, rather than just locking them up.

Exactly. This would prevent repeat offenders.

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Maverick4

6,800 posts

Peasant

Posted February 6, '11 6:49pm UTC

First: Do you participate in Lincoln-Douglas Debate through the NFL? This is similar to the Current Topic we have now.

If you primarily punish the convicted criminal, than the system would be a Retributive Justice System.

In prison you are not taught what you did is wrong, but are encouraged to do activities such as participating clubs focusing on art, movies, and books.

When your locked away in a 10' by 6' cell for 3 years, you have a lot of time to think. And the point of the clubs would be to direct the criminal's energies away from crime, and into some other action he may have interest in.

A Retributive Justice System is better because you recieve a fair and just punishment based on your crime. If some one knows the consequences of their crime, than they will be less inclined to do this. A perfect example of this would be Saudia Arabia: Criminals who recieve the death penalty are executed in public. WHile this is a little harsh, its a perfect example of how punishments can effectively deter crime.

There is a big difference between someone who wants to stab you and someone who wants to open the door for you when you walk in.

Theres also a big difference between someone whos genuine, and only pretending. Rehabilitation works in some cases, but in others, its not so effective. The Criminal may say hes reformed, but how do we know if he is really? Even if the vast majority of Rehabilitated Criminals were truly rehabilitated, would you still want to risk the chance that they 'Rehabilitated' Criminal could go on to harm even more victims? You said in the OP that the Victim should benefit. But if the Criminal can go on to cause even more harm to society, this would not be benefiting the Victim, and would go against the primary goal of rehabilitation, which is to better society.

A Retributive Justice System is better, because the Criminal:

1) Is fairly and justly punished for their crimes. If they can't get away with their crimes, than they will choose not to do them, because the consequences of the crimes would be too great.

2) Will understand the consequences of his actions. You have a lot of time to think when your locked away for 10 years in a cell. ANd if the criminal doesn't learn, than he will recieve harsher and harsher sentences until he does.

First: Do you participate in Lincoln-Douglas Debate through the NFL? This is similar to the Current Topic we have now.\r\n\r\nIf you primarily punish the convicted criminal, than the system would be a Retributive Justice System.\r\n\r\n[quote]In prison you are not taught what you did is wrong, but are encouraged to do activities such as participating clubs focusing on art, movies, and books.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhen your locked away in a 10' by 6' cell for 3 years, you have a lot of time to think. And the point of the clubs would be to direct the criminal's energies away from crime, and into some other action he may have interest in.\r\n\r\nA Retributive Justice System is better because you recieve a fair and just punishment based on your crime. If some one knows the consequences of their crime, than they will be less inclined to do this. A perfect example of this would be Saudia Arabia: Criminals who recieve the death penalty are executed in public. WHile this is a little harsh, its a perfect example of how punishments can effectively deter crime. \r\n\r\n[quote]There is a big difference between someone who wants to stab you and someone who wants to open the door for you when you walk in.[/quote]\r\n\r\nTheres also a big difference between someone whos genuine, and only pretending. Rehabilitation works in some cases, but in others, its not so effective. The Criminal may say hes reformed, but how do we know if he is really? Even if the vast majority of Rehabilitated Criminals were truly rehabilitated, would you still want to risk the chance that they 'Rehabilitated' Criminal could go on to harm even more victims? You said in the OP that the Victim should benefit. But if the Criminal can go on to cause even more harm to society, this would not be benefiting the Victim, and would go against the primary goal of rehabilitation, which is to better society.\r\n\r\nA Retributive Justice System is better, because the Criminal:\r\n\r\n1) Is fairly and justly punished for their crimes. If they can't get away with their crimes, than they will choose not to do them, because the consequences of the crimes would be too great.\r\n\r\n2) Will understand the consequences of his actions. You have a lot of time to think when your locked away for 10 years in a cell. ANd if the criminal doesn't learn, than he will recieve harsher and harsher sentences until he does.

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Kevin4762

2,420 posts

Nomad

Posted February 6, '11 7:03pm UTC

When your locked away in a 10' by 6' cell for 3 years, you have a lot of time to think. And the point of the clubs would be to direct the criminal's energies away from crime, and into some other action he may have interest in.

What if you are convicted of involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to 5 years in jail? At what other point in your life would you accidentally put heroin and cocaine in the same syringe to your friend?

A Retributive Justice System is better because you recieve a fair and just punishment based on your crime. If some one knows the consequences of their crime, than they will be less inclined to do this.

No matter what you call it, someone is being punished. Therefore, Punitive-Retributive System.

A perfect example of this would be Saudia Arabia: Criminals who recieve the death penalty are executed in public. WHile this is a little harsh, its a perfect example of how punishments can effectively deter crime.

Most murders are crimes of passion. If I catch you raping my wife, I will get my bat and begin to crack every bone in your head. You have violated my wife. I want you dead. The last thing going through my head is prison when I am killing you.

Theres also a big difference between someone whos genuine, and only pretending. Rehabilitation works in some cases, but in others, its not so effective. The Criminal may say hes reformed, but how do we know if he is really? Even if the vast majority of Rehabilitated Criminals were truly rehabilitated, would you still want to risk the chance that they 'Rehabilitated' Criminal could go on to harm even more victims? You said in the OP that the Victim should benefit. But if the Criminal can go on to cause even more harm to society, this would not be benefiting the Victim, and would go against the primary goal of rehabilitation, which is to better society.

Even if he is faking it and does harm someone, it does not increase the chance of a repeat offender.

1) Is fairly and justly punished (PUNITIVE SYSTEM) for their crimes. If they can't get away with their crimes, than they will choose not to do them, because the consequences of the crimes would be too great.

Then why are there so many repeat offenders?

2) Will understand the consequences of his actions. You have a lot of time to think when your locked away for 10 years in a cell. ANd if the criminal doesn't learn, than he will recieve harsher and harsher sentences until he does.

What about people who sell crack cocaine as their only source of money? What do you expect them to do once they get out? They have no money. No house. No food. What will they do for money? The only thing they know how. Sell crack cocaine.

[quote]When your locked away in a 10' by 6' cell for 3 years, you have a lot of time to think. And the point of the clubs would be to direct the criminal's energies away from crime, and into some other action he may have interest in.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhat if you are convicted of involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to 5 years in jail? At what other point in your life would you accidentally put heroin and cocaine in the same syringe to your friend?\r\n\r\n[quote]A Retributive Justice System is better because you recieve a fair and just punishment based on your crime. If some one knows the consequences of their crime, than they will be less inclined to do this.[/quote]\r\n\r\nNo matter what you call it, someone is being punished. Therefore, Punitive-Retributive System.\r\n\r\n[quote]A perfect example of this would be Saudia Arabia: Criminals who recieve the death penalty are executed in public. WHile this is a little harsh, its a perfect example of how punishments can effectively deter crime. [/quote]\r\n\r\nMost murders are crimes of passion. If I catch you raping my wife, I will get my bat and begin to crack every bone in your head. You have violated my wife. I want you dead. The last thing going through my head is prison when I am killing you.\r\n\r\n[quote]Theres also a big difference between someone whos genuine, and only pretending. Rehabilitation works in some cases, but in others, its not so effective. The Criminal may say hes reformed, but how do we know if he is really? Even if the vast majority of Rehabilitated Criminals were truly rehabilitated, would you still want to risk the chance that they 'Rehabilitated' Criminal could go on to harm even more victims? You said in the OP that the Victim should benefit. But if the Criminal can go on to cause even more harm to society, this would not be benefiting the Victim, and would go against the primary goal of rehabilitation, which is to better society.[/quote]\r\n\r\nEven if he is faking it and does harm someone, it does not increase the chance of a repeat offender. \r\n\r\n[quote]1) Is fairly and justly punished ([b]PUNITIVE SYSTEM[/b]) for their crimes. If they can't get away with their crimes, than they will choose not to do them, because the consequences of the crimes would be too great.[/quote]\r\n\r\nThen why are there so many repeat offenders?\r\n\r\n[quote]2) Will understand the consequences of his actions. You have a lot of time to think when your locked away for 10 years in a cell. ANd if the criminal doesn't learn, than he will recieve harsher and harsher sentences until he does.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhat about people who sell crack cocaine as their only source of money? What do you expect them to do once they get out? They have no money. No house. No food. What will they do for money? The only thing they know how. Sell crack cocaine.

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Einfach

1,448 posts

Nomad

Posted February 6, '11 7:05pm UTC

Most murders are crimes of passion.

Should premeditated murders be treated more harshly than ones out of passion?

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Kevin4762

2,420 posts

Nomad

Posted February 6, '11 7:08pm UTC

Should premeditated murders be treated more harshly than ones out of passion?

Yes, but when people deliberately are planning to murder someone, they know they will go to prison.

If they already are expecting the punishment but still do it, then punishing them does not deter them at all.

That is where my Rehabilitation System comes in.

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skarl

250 posts

Nomad

Posted February 6, '11 7:32pm UTC

where I live, murder is discribed as: premediated killing. if we assume that that is the same elsewhere, what is exactly the difference?

this would mean that (example) someone finds out to be betrayed by their partner, takes the kitchen knife, waits till the other comes home, kills.

is this not premeditaded? it is out of passion though.

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Einfach

1,448 posts

Nomad

Posted February 6, '11 7:37pm UTC

is this not premeditaded? it is out of passion though.

It is both - premeditated simply requires the passage of time to think over the killing - it's difficult to keep up rage for hours on end; rage only lasts a few minutes...
Premeditated does not preclude a passionate aspect.

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Kevin4762

2,420 posts

Nomad

Posted February 6, '11 8:21pm UTC

So overall, nobody has a problem with my idea of a justice system.

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Maverick4

6,800 posts

Peasant

Posted February 6, '11 8:51pm UTC

At what other point in your life would you accidentally put heroin and cocaine in the same syringe to your friend?

I fail to see how this point is relevant.

No matter what you call it, someone is being punished. Therefore, Punitive-Retributive System.

It IS important what we call it. The whole idea behind Retributive Justice is that the punishment fits the crime. Yes, someone is being punished, but this happens in alot of other ideas of Justice. Because the punishment should be according to the crime, this would be Retributive Justice.

Retributive Justice

Even if he is faking it and does harm someone, it does not increase the chance of a repeat offender.

So, by comming a crime that ends him in rehab, and he pretends that he is cured, and he goes out back to society to commit another crime, this isn't a repeat offender? That statement is true according to your above logic.

Then why are there so many repeat offenders?

Because we have not enacted a true system of Retributive Justice. This ad was at the top of this page:

http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/imgad?id=CMKE3bPP1rO_SBDYBRhPMgjv_c_zx8cLMg

If we can't even punish a criminal according to the crime he has commited, than recidivism will increase until this is possible. Recidivism will do down, once a true system of Retributive Justice has been achieved.

Most murders are crimes of passion.

Thats irrelevant to this point. Saudia Arabia publicaly executes its criminals who have recieved the death sentence. And wouldn't you know, they have low levels of crime. Obviously, this is sending a message to possible criminals that this is a possible outcome of your crime.

Then why are there so many repeat offenders?

The US Justice system is divided into two parts: The Adult Justice System, and the Juvenile Justice System. The Former deals primarily with punishment (Retributive Justice), and the Latter downplays punishment, and stresses rehabilitation more (Restorative Justice).

The American Law Institute observed in 2008 that "85.4% of the violent crimes commited by juveniles required what is considered legally &quotremeditation"; this entails will and responsiblitly for the action to be committed. Of this percentage almost two thirds of the offenders were not prosecuted as adults, this lack resulted in a recidivism rate of 94%"

This shows that Juveniles who are kept in the Juvenile Justice System, a system of Restorative Justice, actually had higher rates of recidivism as compared to those Juveniles transfered to the Adult Justice System, a system of Retributive Justice. This also disprooves your statement that most murders are 'acts of passion', as 85.4% of the violent crimes committed by juveniles were acts of premeditation.

What about people who sell crack cocaine as their only source of money? What do you expect them to do once they get out? They have no money. No house. No food. What will they do for money? The only thing they know how. Sell crack cocaine.

They would NOT do that. If a true system of Retributive Justice was in place, the ex-convict would be aware of the consequences of his actions. Therefore, because he would fear the results of his actions, he would not do those negative actions. If he did, he would recive harsher and harsher punishments until he learned that lesson.

[quote]At what other point in your life would you accidentally put heroin and cocaine in the same syringe to your friend?[/quote]\r\n\r\nI fail to see how this point is relevant.\r\n\r\n[quote]No matter what you call it, someone is being punished. Therefore, Punitive-Retributive System.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIt IS important what we call it. The whole idea behind Retributive Justice is that the punishment fits the crime. Yes, someone is being punished, but this happens in alot of other ideas of Justice. Because the punishment should be according to the crime, this would be Retributive Justice.\r\n\r\n[url=http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRetributive_justice&rct=j&q=retributive%20justice&ei=fARPTf36CcO78galmITiDg&usg=AFQjCNFDgbE08Vb9-6TsQgnZFMsRhPdMmw]Retributive Justice[/url]\r\n\r\n[quote]Even if he is faking it and does harm someone, it does not increase the chance of a repeat offender.[/quote] \r\n\r\nSo, by comming a crime that ends him in rehab, and he pretends that he is cured, and he goes out back to society to commit another crime, this isn't a repeat offender? That statement is true according to your above logic.\r\n\r\n[quote]Then why are there so many repeat offenders?[/quote]\r\n\r\nBecause we have not enacted a true system of Retributive Justice. This ad was at the top of this page:\r\n\r\n[img]http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/imgad?id=CMKE3bPP1rO_SBDYBRhPMgjv_c_zx8cLMg[/img]\r\n\r\nIf we can't even punish a criminal according to the crime he has commited, than recidivism will increase until this is possible. Recidivism will do down, once a true system of Retributive Justice has been achieved.\r\n\r\n[quote]Most murders are crimes of passion.[/quote]\r\n\r\nThats irrelevant to this point. Saudia Arabia publicaly executes its criminals who have recieved the death sentence. And wouldn't you know, they have low levels of crime. Obviously, this is sending a message to possible criminals that this is a possible outcome of your crime.\r\n\r\n[quote]Then why are there so many repeat offenders?[/quote]\r\n\r\nThe US Justice system is divided into two parts: The Adult Justice System, and the Juvenile Justice System. The Former deals primarily with punishment (Retributive Justice), and the Latter downplays punishment, and stresses rehabilitation more (Restorative Justice).\r\n\r\nThe American Law Institute observed in 2008 that [i]"85.4% of the violent crimes commited by juveniles required what is considered legally "premeditation"; this entails will and responsiblitly for the action to be committed. Of this percentage almost two thirds of the offenders were not prosecuted as adults, this lack resulted in a recidivism rate of 94%"[/i] \r\n\r\nThis shows that Juveniles who are kept in the Juvenile Justice System, a system of Restorative Justice, actually had higher rates of recidivism as compared to those Juveniles transfered to the Adult Justice System, a system of Retributive Justice. This also disprooves your statement that most murders are 'acts of passion', as 85.4% of the violent crimes committed by juveniles were acts of premeditation.\r\n\r\n[quote]What about people who sell crack cocaine as their only source of money? What do you expect them to do once they get out? They have no money. No house. No food. What will they do for money? The only thing they know how. Sell crack cocaine.[/quote]\r\n\r\nThey would NOT do that. If a true system of Retributive Justice was in place, the ex-convict would be aware of the consequences of his actions. Therefore, because he would fear the results of his actions, he would not do those negative actions. If he did, he would recive harsher and harsher punishments until he learned that lesson.

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