God created us with a basic understanding of right and wrong.

Care to justify the crusades?

I'd like to know what these 'ways' are.

Usually personal experience of reciprocation. You take someone's toy. Later, someone takes your toy. You feel bad. You realize that it's wrong to take toys. You hit someone. Someone hits you. You realize it's bad to hit.

I do not believe there are any concrete "rights" or "wrongs." I could think of a situation for anything in which it would be excusable.

Then you'll just do whatever you please because it can be excusable? So if it's excusable once it should be fine all the time, right? And think of a situation where raping is excusable.

1) It will most likely end in violence if it were to be allowed.
2) I wouldn't want others taking things from me.
3) It's already well established to not do this in almost every culture.

1) Are you implying that you believe violence to be wrong? If so, why do you believe it to be wrong?
2) Why? You could just steal right back from them.
3) Why is it already well established if nothing is really right or wrong and if morals differ from person-to-person? If morals differ from person-to-person as you say they do, then that means that one person, with a specific set of morals, laid down these 'well established laws'? What made them so great that they could decide what morals everyone else has? If you're thinking "Well what made God so great that he could choose morals?" My scenario is assuming that God does not exist. So who laid down these well established morals, and why are they not subject to change?

What do you mean I'd have no punishment? People go to jail all the time for breaking laws

I meant that you believe you have no eternal punishment. And sure people go to jail for breaking laws. But why do these laws exist? Why is there a law against murder? Because it's wrong? Why is it wrong?

Kissing on the check is a form of greeting in other places, but if you tried that here you'd most likely at least get yelled at, if not called out for sexual harassment.

So who is right? You might say, "Whoever obeys the customs of that society." What if a society gave no punishment/jail-time for murder? Would you go around murdering everyone?

I personally try to judge everything individually. So, from my own thoughts.

I thought you said you got your morals from society.............

I wouldn't want someone to take something of mine. I most likely paid for it, or it holds some sort of sentimental value. I know what it would feel like if it was taken for me, and I don't want to cause others those feelings.

Why? You believe that you only live once. So why not steal and make yourself happy?

Where are you getting that Atheism says life has no meaning?

Conversation between Christian and Atheist about life's meaning:

Christian: "What do you believe is life's meaning?"
Atheist: "Survival, entertainment, and the pursuit of happiness in general.
Christian: "So does that mean you'll steal 1 billion dollars from someone to make yourself happy? And stealing that money is fine because it 'fulfills your meaning?" ........

Not having an afterlife to fall back on makes everything MORE meaningful.

If you don't believe in an afterlife, that makes everything you do on earth, useless. A hopeless pile of hogwash. The goal of Christians is to "go out and make disciples of all nations" as Jesus commanded.

No. I don't do any of these things now, and I wouldn't then for the same reasons as now.

If society declared no punishment for 'crimes', you wouldn't go out and do those 'crimes' for what reasons? I thought you got your morals from society. So if society goes nuts, why don't you follow it?

By what is feasible/fair to have legal/illegal and for the common good of all.

'The common good of all' is...

NOT HAVING THE SAME BELIEFS AS YOU DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE DON'T VALUE ANYTHING AT ALL.

Alrighty then... and why do you value things?

Not having a belief in an afterlife makes the life we have MORE important, not less. It's the only life we're going to get.

And so we have come back around the circle, so I shall repeat my original question: Why don't you do whatever you please?

Just because we won't exist forever doesn't mean that what we do doesn't matter.

Then what does matter? What do you believe is your meaning?

The "meaning" of life differs from person to person. Just because we don't think there's some ultimate place or law to reach/follow doesn't meaning that we don't have our own purposes.

I'm curious. What do you believe your purpose is?

If this was true, then everyone would get these feelings and there would be no argument on what's right or wrong.

Everyone DOES get these feelings! That's why we don't go around murdering people!
-

Is it? Why wouldn't your god take it away, then?

You didn't answer my question. Would you take the candy because it's bad for the child and because you want to eat it? It's a 'yes or no' question.

That is not what I said. What I said is that a wolf from wolf pack A will not kill another wolf from wolf pack A, except under certain circumstances. So why would a human from group A kill another human from group A? It harms them and makes the group weaker, harming you.

If you believe in nothing, just as the animals do, then I'm not sure. How are you supposed to tell right from wrong?

Isn't it? You think so as well, or you wouldn't be Christian. Is it morally right to kill someone if you a soldier? If they are a threat to you or your loved one's well being? I would say yes.

I'm not sure your words made perfect sense to me, but... If you are a Christian soldier, you should protect your country/friends/family by murdering, only as a last resort. Because some of those enemies would take you life, or the lives' of you're fellow soldiers, without question. God will also forgive you of murder if you ask him.

Where do you get your morals? Certainly not from the Bible. If that was true, you would be stoning a lot more people than you are now.

I'm not completely up-to-snuff on my Bible studies, but I think that stoning was part of old jewish laws. But like I said, I'm not a certified Bible scholar or anything.

Certainly not from god. If that where true, then wouldn't everyone share the same morals? So where in hell do you get your morals?

Everyone does not share the same morals, if we did, would we be discussing this? Christians get their morals from the Jesus and his doctrine.

Why do you prolong your entrance to heaven, since you apparently hate life so much?

Because Jesus commands Christians to go make disciples. And I don't hate life, and I never said that I did.

Why would you waste the only lobster you would ever get?

Because that lobster is temporary and meaningless. Ernest Hemmingway was an atheist who killed himself because he could find no meaning. He was smart enough to not prolong the inevitable, but no smart enough to see the gospel.

When you only get one thing, you don't waste it.

Bingo. Back to my original question. Why don't you go and do whatever you please?

If you believe in god, then why was Hitler bad? All he did was send people to heaven

Adolf Hitler was bad because he murdered millions of people, which is against Christian morals.

and if they went to hell then Yawheh obviously wants them to be in pain, so he was doing his work anyway.

God desires no one to suffer. Why do you think he sent his only son to save us?

The Bible even says to kill people who are not of your religion. To stone them, to be more accurate, if I remember correctly.

Jesus said to go and make disciples of all nations. I believe it was jewish law that demanded the stoning of others.

So why not bring others to heaven, by shooting at them?

*facedesk* Shooting someone does not make them go to heaven.

Don't worry when you send someone to hell, I am sure that would be part of god's plane yes?

No, it is your choice to reject, or believe in God.

He would have wanted them to go to hell, or they wouldn't have went, so you would be doing his work anyway. So why not just go on a shooting spree, "Bringing others to god"?

*double facedesk* Shooting someone does not bring them to God.

Then you are a horrible, amoral criminal.

No. I would be one who takes full advantage of life, just as you say someone should.

The only thing that keeps you good is fear that something bad will happen?

I was assuming that I were an atheist, and that the laws of society have been abolished. Then I would to whatever I please.

To form a more perfect union? To establish justice, and insure domestic tranquility, for us and our proprietaries? For the good of everyone, and to help the light of life shine longer and brighter?

Why should we help the light of life shine brighter? We're all just worthless bags of chemicals that can talk, right?

The only thing keeping you alive is your religion?

Probably. If I were to blind to see meaning, I would probably kill myself.

Only one as deluded as yourself

you are a foolish coward.

Childish name-calling is the first sign that is shown when one is losing a debate. You are lucky I do not take offense to this. But I forgive you for calling me names. Or are you not sorry?

Many of us explained those 'ways' in our first response to you on this subject.

And I responded to those 'ways'

It would depend on the situation.

Why?

As for the rest of your question here read over what's already been said on why we establish such laws.

Read over my responses.

What's wrong with it is that what it causes is damage.

Who cares? As long as you are pleased and you get the most out of your life, right?

As for what your fairy tale, no God didn't create us with a sense of right and wrong since we didn't posses knowledge of good and evil. That was only gained after eating a magic fruit that they weren't suppose to eat.

But they still had a choice. To eat the fruit and disobey God, or to not eat the fruit. They had a moral choice to make.

No that's not what I said at all. I said the meaning is what we make of it. There isn't really a set meaning. For instance one thing that brings meaning, a sense of purpose to my life is caring for my birds. That of course could be completely meaningless to you. This is a meaning I gave my to my own life.

You believe that you're ultimate goal in life is to care for a few birds that could normally take care of themselves in the wild?

Why shouldn't I?

Because you believe that everything is temporary. You can only make a temporary difference that will temporarily benefit a temporary society.

For a socially bonded family structure to form we would have needed to develop these moral imperatives first.

What if your family was white and you decided that it was morally fine to kill black people? Does that make it right just because those are morals that have been developed?

Yeah some kids actually would, what the hell is your point here?

I'm saying that would you take that cookie and deliberately disobey? What about $10? $100? $100,000? Would you take $100,000 dollars just to satisfy yourself?

Again go back and actually read what we have posted, this asking a question to something already answered one page back that you likely already saw is annoying and makes you look obtuse.

Go back and read my responses.........

Now you're resorting to fallacies. I never said life has no meaning, I said we give our own lives meaning, beyond that there isn't really any meaning. Can you comprehend the difference there?

You give your own lives meaning? Sounds to me like you just said "The meaning of life is what life means."

You

Insults get you nowhere in debates.

@afterburner0- life is what you make it, not what your silly notion of a god makes it.

Why should you be punished if you are caught by the police? Because what you were doing was 'wrong'? Why is it wrong? Because they say so?

that, and because of the fact that you have damaged the livelihood of another member of your kind. simple as that.

What's 'wrong' with doing harm? ...You see, this is the very basis of which God created us. "In the beginning blah blah blah... God created man in His own image." God has no physical nature. God created us with a basic understanding of right and wrong. And that is why you do not feel like doing whatever the heck you please. Because you feel that it's wrong.

if your god gave us a sense of right and wrong, why do so many of us not believe him? afterall, your religion says its wrong to believe anyone other than god, or not believe in him at all. free will my ***, right and wrong would still mean that we would believe that your god existed.

You basically just said "The meaning of life is what life means." Does that make any sense? Not to me it doesn't.

what we are saying is that you shouldn't let an outdated belief make major life descisions for you. we are defining what life means to us. simple as that.

Okay, so where else do you get your morals, besides society?

society covers most, if not all, of the bases. so really your god isn't needed.

Why should we care if it effects society as a whole? This is going in a circle, btw. If life has no meaning for you and we're all just going to die, why prolong the inevitable? Who cares if society collapses?

we care because it is our only life, and we need to make the best of it. your religion tells you that this life is meaningless, we are saying that life has meaning. see where your beliefs fall short?

They have no morals. They have instinct. One might argue that humans have instinct as well. But what is human instinct? To steal something because you want it? To murder someone because you don't like them? But this craziness goes all the way back to the fall in the garden of Eden. Man chose to sin, not animals. Animals are victim of circumstance. And besides, animals don't even have eternal souls like humans do. So I don't think that murdering animals is wrong...... but whatever, this is a discussion for another thread.

morals are instinct. we don't steal because our instinct tells us the most likely outcome of the situation. just like animals. no souls required.

So you can make morals like "I think it's morally right to kill someone." Sure go ahead and make all those morals that you'd like.

no, we never said that. your god sure did durring the crusades, and many other events in the bible. so go ahead, kill in the name of your false notion of beliefs.

Why would most people prolong the inevitable? I wouldn't. Especially if I believed that life had no meaning.

we make the meaning, and our meanings tend to be better than "get people to share my beliefs any means necessary"

What do you mean by 'waste it'? Do you mean 'not fulfill our purpose'? Well you don't know what your purpose is... So...

our genetic purpose is to make sure that our survival as a species continues. our subconcious purpose is to maintain homeostasis, and our individual purpose is to live life to the fullest as we see it. your god wants to cut us off in each of those if you look at both the bible, and history, very carefully.

Because I was created for the glory of God, and I need to bring others to Him.

since there is no god, you are wasting your life.

would do whatever I please, since there is no real punishment.

then you are as emotionally mature as a child. children do whatever they want, but only don't do certain things because they fear punishment. your religion is doing the exact same thing to you, turning you into a child/sheep/thrall. you are becoming a puppet, and your dances have no meaning in the long run.

Because converting people to Christ is my goal.

I don't think you really realize the gravity of what you just said. you basically just forefeited you life for a meaningless and unreachable goal. good luck with the rest of your wasted life.

-Blade

Go back and read my responses.........

You haven't actually given any responses addressing what we have said. You have asked questions to things we already responded to.

Insults get you nowhere in debates.

An insult would be to tell you what's been going through my mind about you. That was pointing out the obvious in a satirical way.

As for this being a debate, as it still seems you have no interest in hearing us. So I have to wonder about this one way debate. You repeatedly asked where we get our morals, which we told you but you keep asking. You have tried to tell us what our position is on things such as with "atheists have no meaning to life" and have even go as far as to try and put words in our mouth. You continue to ask why we don't just do what ever we like regardless of harm, which we answered. You have not refuted a thing there and seem to be ignoring what we are saying to favor your own stereotype.

dang, my post is out of date. back to work:

I meant that you believe you have no eternal punishment. And sure people go to jail for breaking laws. But why do these laws exist? Why is there a law against murder? Because it's wrong? Why is it wrong?

because, like we covered earlier, it only serves as a detriment to our species to kill off a good source of genes.

So who is right? You might say, "Whoever obeys the customs of that society." What if a society gave no punishment/jail-time for murder? Would you go around murdering everyone?

no, because it would still serve as a detriment to our species, which our instincts tell us to preseve our species.

Why? You believe that you only live once. So why not steal and make yourself happy?

because if we do, then we would only shorten our life, or make it as meaningless as your religion when we get life in jail.

Christian: "What do you believe is life's meaning?"
Atheist: "Survival, entertainment, and the pursuit of happiness in general.
Christian: "So does that mean you'll steal 1 billion dollars from someone to make yourself happy? And stealing that money is fine because it 'fulfills your meaning?" ........

you again seem to be missing the point. morals don't come from religion. society made it first, but religion took the credit. we wouldn't steal because extending our species is our ultimate goal. our happiness is only a side-objective that is still governed by society's laws.

*facedesk* Shooting someone does not make them go to heaven.

religious doctrine (if you actually paid attention) says otherwise.

If you don't believe in an afterlife, that makes everything you do on earth, useless. A hopeless pile of hogwash. The goal of Christians is to "go out and make disciples of all nations" as Jesus commanded.

sorry, but that also applies with religion. everything you did has no real meaning in the eyes of god, who only wants more thralls to feed his ego. for he is indeed "a jealous god".

Probably. If I were to blind to see meaning, I would probably kill myself.

and that is why we all call you a fool. look over it again, and see if you can't figure out why.

But they still had a choice. To eat the fruit and disobey God, or to not eat the fruit. They had a moral choice to make.

but they had no morals, until they ate the fruit, so they wouldn't know that they were doing wrong. argument disproven.

You believe that you're ultimate goal in life is to care for a few birds that could normally take care of themselves in the wild?

how can you not see this, or understand this. his has more meaning than yours. his will extend his life, while yours will bring you an early death (because you believe that the ultimate goal is to die and go to a false land).

Why should we help the light of life shine brighter? We're all just worthless bags of chemicals that can talk, right?

we are, but we are still obligated by instinct to preserve the survival of said talking meat-bags.

Because you believe that everything is temporary. You can only make a temporary difference that will temporarily benefit a temporary society.

still beneficial, instead of your god promoting massive slaughtering to sate his desire to be loved.

What if your family was white and you decided that it was morally fine to kill black people? Does that make it right just because those are morals that have been developed?

society says otherwise, and would lock our parents away. your god said it was okay to mistreat black people, if my memory is correct.

'm saying that would you take that cookie and deliberately disobey? What about $10? $100? $100,000? Would you take $100,000 dollars just to satisfy yourself?

no, I wouldn't. you are thinking that because we have only one life, that we should just run rampant and do whatever we want for as long as possible. it doesn't work like that, but your religion's brainwashing forces you to think that is the case without your lonely god. that is why we consider you foolish.

Insults get you nowhere in debates.

just like how your ignorance will get you nowhere. this isn't a debate, it's us trying to educate a man who covers his ears as goes "nananananananana" to prevent our points from hitting home.

-Blade

Then you'll just do whatever you please because it can be excusable? So if it's excusable once it should be fine all the time, right?

Sigh. No. Stop reading into people's posts what you want to see there. No one has said this.

And think of a situation where raping is excusable.

In a society where strength is valued and mates are chosen by this, **** would be a form of courting. Taking the other by force would indicate that you have more strength than they do. Since this would be the commonly accepted way of courting/mating, this wouldn't be wrong.

1) Are you implying that you believe violence to be wrong? If so, why do you believe it to be wrong?
2) Why? You could just steal right back from them.

No. I'm implying nothing in of itself. I'm saying that violence in this case is unnecessary. While we could go forever in a circle of give and take, this would be a colossal waste of time.

3) Why is it already well established if nothing is really right or wrong and if morals differ from person-to-person?

Tradition/proven to work well.

Why is there a law against murder? Because it's wrong? Why is it wrong?

Because if we all just went out killing each other, we wouldn't get much down now would we? It would kill off our species.

I thought you said you got your morals from society.............

I said that's one of the 3 ways/places we get them from.

Why? You believe that you only live once. So why not steal and make yourself happy?

Because it wouldn't make me happy. I'd be thrown in jail. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

If you don't believe in an afterlife, that makes everything you do on earth, useless.

How do you figure that.

'The common good of all' is...

The common good is the common good...the environment where each person has a fair chance to live a happy life...

Alrighty then... and why do you value things?

For the exact same reason you do. Because they have meaning to us. We just don't value the same things always.

Why don't you do whatever you please?

I have already answered this, and so have the others.

Everyone DOES get these feelings! That's why we don't go around murdering people!

1) In born instinct in this case.
2) Sociopaths aren't born with this.

----------------------------------------------------------

I'm sick of answering your same questions over and over. All of us have already told you why we don't just go out and do whatever whim we want, on how we don't think life is meaningless, and our own personal stances on where we get morals from.

Either ask something new, make a new stand, or stop ignoring our posts so you can pretend to be above us by strawmanning our argument to say something which we aren't.

I'll leave with this statement: Atheists are more moral than Theists because we do what is "right" because it is the best choice of action, and not out of fear of punishment. Theists do what is right because they're scared to be punished. This is the lowest level of moral reasoning and the equivalent of a 5 year old.

God desires no one to suffer. Why do you think he sent his only son to save us?

Then why did He send Jesus to suffer?

Because Jesus commands Christians to go make disciples.

Is this justification for the Crusades?

But they still had a choice. To eat the fruit and disobey God, or to not eat the fruit. They had a moral choice to make.

Without knowledge of the consequences, there wasn't much incentive not to eat it. It's like telling a kid not to touch the stove because they'll get burned, when the kid's never been burned before. They'll touch it wondering what the heck you were talking about. Also, since God's all knowing, he knew what choice they'd make, so he set them up for failure from the start.

You believe that you're ultimate goal in life is to care for a few birds that could normally take care of themselves in the wild?

You believe that an all-powerful being decided to create you with the sole purpose of being his preaching slave instead of simply writing "I am God, I exist" in the sky?

God created us with a basic understanding of right and wrong.

Adolf Hitler was bad because he murdered millions of people, which is against Christian morals.

Gotta love contradictions. By your logic, if God made him with right and wrong born into him, and he truly believed that Jews were enemies of Christ who deserved to die and God was putting him in power for such a noble purpose, then therefore God told him that genocide was the right thing to do.

If you believe in nothing, just as the animals do, then I'm not sure. How are you supposed to tell right from wrong?

I make my own morals. The same way the wolfs know that killing each other would be counter productive.

I'm not sure your words made perfect sense to me, but... If you are a Christian soldier, you should protect your country/friends/family by murdering, only as a last resort. Because some of those enemies would take you life, or the lives' of you're fellow soldiers, without question. God will also forgive you of murder if you ask him.

You asked me if killing was wrong. I said sometimes. Your response is irrelevant.

I'm not completely up-to-snuff on my Bible studies, but I think that stoning was part of old jewish laws. But like I said, I'm not a certified Bible scholar or anything.

It is in the Torah, or Old Testament to the Christians. Which, even Jesus said, still counts.

If you believe that the Bible is the book of a deity, and is more important information for him to give then even things like medicine, then why are you not memorizing the whole thing?

Everyone does not share the same morals, if we did, would we be discussing this? Christians get their morals from the Jesus and his doctrine.

Bull. You have not gotten any of your morals from Jesus or his doctrine. If you did, then wouldn't all Christians think the same?

If god gave us morals, then all morals would be the same. Since all morals are different, then that means that a god could not have given us morals.

Because Jesus commands Christians to go make disciples. And I don't hate life, and I never said that I did.

You seem to think that without religion, you would be a murderous killer. If religion is the only thing keeping you from genocide, then you hate life.

So why not live dangerously while doing it? That way you get disciples and get to heaven faster. And why are you sad when someone dies, if you believe they are going to heaven?

Because that lobster is temporary and meaningless. Ernest Hemmingway was an atheist who killed himself because he could find no meaning. He was smart enough to not prolong the inevitable, but no smart enough to see the gospel.

? He was not an atheist. He was Catholic, he even had a Catholic funeral.

Alright, thousands of suicides happen across the world each year. Statistically, most of them are Christians do to there being more Christians. So why don't you off yourself, or if you can't do that drink hard and live dangerously, if you are just going to go to heaven after you die?

Bingo. Back to my original question. Why don't you go and do whatever you please?

Because that would be wasting it. I would much prefer to leave a legacy of science and friends and family then "That rapist". Are you suggesting that if you where an atheist, you would **** and pillage then kill yourself?

Adolf Hitler was bad because he murdered millions of people, which is against Christian morals.

HA! Have you read the Bible? God killed more than that, and is planning to do the same himself. The flood! Revelations! David, Sampson, Lot, he ordered killings of millions and killed millions himself.

Now answer my question. Why is killing bad, if it is just sending people to god, or sending them to hell, which would be part of his plan?

God desires no one to suffer. Why do you think he sent his only son to save us?

Yawheh wants people to suffer. Why else would he make hell in the first place?

No, it is your choice to reject, or believe in God.

So are you saying that all the Jews, who would go to hell under the Christian doctrine, deserved to go to hell?

I was assuming that I were an atheist, and that the laws of society have been abolished. Then I would to whatever I please.

Then you are the scum of the earth and deserve no paradise.

Probably. If I were to blind to see meaning, I would probably kill myself.

You are blind, and you are still alive. See what I said about you hating life?

Childish name-calling is the first sign that is shown when one is losing a debate. You are lucky I do not take offense to this. But I forgive you for calling me names. Or are you not sorry?

Apologize? You are scum and a coward. You admit to being ruled by fear, the only reason you even live is because you are afraid to die. You are scum, you have no morals outside of an insane book you have not even read, and admitted that you would **** and pillage without it. I gladly call any man ruled by fear a coward, and any man without a sliver of morals scum.

Then why did He send Jesus to suffer?

So no one else has too.

Is this justification for the Crusades?

He never said that. The actions of a radical group within the fundamental group shouldn't represent the attitude and the goals of the whole. That's just being narrow-minded.

Without knowledge of the consequences, there wasn't much incentive not to eat it. It's like telling a kid not to touch the stove because they'll get burned, when the kid's never been burned before. They'll touch it wondering what the heck you were talking about. Also, since God's all knowing, he knew what choice they'd make, so he set them up for failure from the start.

Obviously, ultimately that is how one learns a lesson, from a mistake, correct?

You believe that an all-powerful being decided to create you with the sole purpose of being his preaching slave instead of simply writing "I am God, I exist" in the sky?

He wanted to bring more honor and glory to His name and His kingdom, simply writing it in the sky would be pointless.

Gotta love contradictions. By your logic, if God made him with right and wrong born into him, and he truly believed that Jews were enemies of Christ who deserved to die and God was putting him in power for such a noble purpose, then therefore God told him that genocide was the right thing to do

He said "Basic understanding" not complete/full understanding. Hitler was driven by lust for power that made him blind to the rights or wrongs of Christian morals and more for to gain power. It was all a big political stunt in the beginning to be anti-semetic, because most German people were thats how he gained parliamentary seats in the Reichstag and power for his Nazi party.

Then you'll just do whatever you please because it can be excusable? So if it's excusable once it should be fine all the time, right? And think of a situation where raping is excusable.

You just don't know how to read do you.

Why is there a law against murder?

Because society wouldn't exist if everyone is murdering everyone.

Christian: "What do you believe is life's meaning?"
Atheist: "Survival, entertainment, and the pursuit of happiness in general.
Christian: "So does that mean you'll steal 1 billion dollars from someone to make yourself happy? And stealing that money is fine because it 'fulfills your meaning?"

This Christian reminds me of someone in this debate who keeps making illogical assumptions.