Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
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I DO believe all men are created equal, but do not exist in equality... Their humanity can be.... Degraded. You could say soldiers are slaves, but by choice. Also, if certain people, not a specific group, of course, but certain people with certain.... Adnanced skills, Endurance, Constatution, Etc, were to be "Enslaved" and used for certain jobs, in the place of less-qualified people, efficiency. But that is WWWAAYYYYYYYYY off-subject, so I'll switch. If you want to further discuss my probably-wrong ideas, leave me a comment.
What I mean by the first point is I wasn't even TALKING about slavery. I was talking about the ten commandmens, ect....
Also to anyone out there interested, the bible only condones slavery for seven years, at which point the slave and his family is to be set free. Just thought I'd point that out.
---ZApe
Jeffery, you obviously didn't read my passage, huh? Ephesians tells children to obey and respect their parents. If they get out of hand, punish them. Beating a child with a rod was civilized punishment back then. It is equivalent to spanking a child in modern times.
Ephesians also tells slaves to obey their masters, for in the end they will be saved if they are with Christ. Masters are to respect slaves, for both slave and master are working for the Lord
I DO believe all men are created equal, but do not exist in equality
You could not of expressed your view more brilliantly. That is very true. I like your example of soldiers. & i guess you could entail maids and butlers into the term. But do you believe in slavery n the tradition form, as in the slave trade?
Yeah, they were to be released on the Jubilee year is correct.
Jeffery, you obviously didn't read my passage, huh? Ephesians tells children to obey and respect their parents. If they get out of hand, punish them. Beating a child with a rod was civilized punishment back then. It is equivalent to spanking a child in modern times.
I did actually. You wrote:
Picking and choosing again, I see. God never approved of masters beating there slaves. Ephesians 6.9 tells masters to take care of slaves.
& gave two examples of the bible approving the beating of slaves.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48)
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property." (Exodus 20:20-21)
I meant Ephesians, chapter six. It basically answers all of the questions and statements you have presented in the past page or so. It seems like you guys use same passages over and over again.
You used one statement from the passage.
Ephesians 6 is indeed a beautiful passage.
You didn't state that Ephesians 6 was your argument for the what makes a good Christian (Which i'm assuming you were going for)
So apologies, when you made the point about slavery, i felt the need to give both sides to the story.
Ephesians 6 as a whole s a very beautifully written and peaceful passage. One of the better throughout the Bible. It's always interesting to take into consideration the writers agenda.
Maids and butlers can quit at any time during their employment, I believe. And I wont even go INTO prostitutes. Thanks for your vote of confidence though.
And mm666, I'll check it out. And, it does..... doesn't it? That's because those are the only reletive to the subject.
Okay, here's the deal with you atheists. Every single time we say something that would make a normal person think, you excuse it with how were so brainwashed. Or how there's no proof that Christ exists. There's also no proof that Christ does not exist. So quotes like that have no value.
There's also no proof that Christ does not exist.
Well a lot of atheists do believe that Jesus was real, just that he wasn't a real god or anything. Anyways did you know there is no proof that an invisible t-Rex isn't beside you?
Every single time we say something that would make a normal person think, you excuse it with how were so brainwashed.
Sometimes we do because what some people say is just dumb, but most of the time we show proof and evidence, I mean do you ever listen/read what an atheist post/says? This thread is full of evidence against god or the bible.
It's on page 186 if you want to read the original. But basically I was saying that after discussing with christians, I got convinced to at least try once to call upon god/jesus, and do it honestly. You know, basically doing what is written in the bible:Well, you don't know if there are processes started to help you after your call. Me too, though, but I believe there is help on the way to you. The main trick is: You are doing right, but you don't persevere as I see right now. And you're referring to Luke 11:9-10, so do read Luke 11:5-8 along with it.
Luke 11 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Luke 11 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
I did so, and may I say I really did it seriously. And I'm still waiting for anything. My point was, since god is supposed to be omniscient and all-loving, he should know how skeptic I can be and how to give me a clear sign, and also he should want to give me the opportunity to believe. Since that didn't happen, either he doesn't know me very well, or he doesn't want me to believe. In both cases, he can't really exist.
5 And he said to them, "Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, `Friend, lend me three loaves;
6 for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him';
7 and he will answer from within, `Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything'?
8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him whatever he needs.
The Bible should be read and adhered to in its whole, so you can't grab one passage and build your theories around it, while there are other passages explaining that in the way that contradicts your theory. So do persevere, do continue to ask, and you will receive a reply.
The fact faith is required only further supports the likely hood of that deity not existing.Well Mage, there is evidence, albeit personal, that suports the cause of God existing, and supports faith of both the one who experienced and others who at least think this can be true, so they can believe as well. I agree this is irrational, as belief always is, but when you personally receive a kind of proof (the one I was trying to propagate all the topic backwards, but have probably done wrong or fruitless), you continue to believe despite it contradicting normal logic. But this is the very same reason why you can't make a person to believe unless he would want to...
You're not going to convert the world shift, you're only 15.You know Shona, there are saints that are of less age than he is, that did convert some people by their own example of virtue, although that usually ended up in them dying one way or the other. There is for example Laura Vicun'a, that requested the Lord of her mother's conversion by giving her own life out, and succeeded. There's Antonietta Meo, who is not yet approved as a "full" saint by Catholic Church, who gave out her leg for conversion of sinners. There's you, after all, who seem to do small sacrifices for the same goal - and neither of us does know what fruit they will bear. So it's posible for shift4101 to take part in converting sinners, he won't do that all by himself of course, but please don't discourage anyone. But you did good at pointing his methods out for him to reconsider.
---ZApe.I do expect some of the arguments to be irrelevant and irreverant, including my own, but please don't judge all of the topic at once. I do expect that you have not read it up cover to cover, otherwise you should find out some valid standpoints for either side. .... Oh you said you read only 16 pages forward... there was even no me back there. Hum.
Well a lot of atheists do believe that Jesus was real, just that he wasn't a real god or anything. Anyways did you know there is no proof that an invisible t-Rex isn't beside you?why should there be no invisible t-rex beside me? Perhaps because there's not enough space for one to fit in, and not touch any other objects in the slightest? And if it's not only invisible, but also insensible, why it's necessarily a t-rex? Either way, this argument is pretty old, and is named IPU. I say that it's not a t-rex or IPU but a guardian angel.
Every single time we say something that would make a normal person think, you excuse it with how were so brainwashed.
So you don't regard atheists as normal people?
Or how there's no proof that Christ exists. There's also no proof that Christ does not exist. So quotes like that have no value.
Not all beliefs are on par with each other. By requiring evidence and being skeptical about claims we can weed out false and unjustified claims in favor of truer justified ones. So without proof it shouldn't be accepted so easily or at all.
Well Mage, there is evidence, albeit personal, that suports the cause of God existing,
That's the problem we can't evaluate to determine if such "evidence" is really evidence or something else where the person is mistaken on what they experienced. You than have to take that claim on faith and just accept it as true. So with this form of evidence your still relying on faith.
Every single time we say something that would make a normal person think, you excuse it with how were so brainwashed. Or how there's no proof that Christ exists. There's also no proof that Christ does not exist. So quotes like that have no value
There is proof that the man who claimed to be Jesus was alive. I'm sure the Athiests in the thread take that into consideration. I am talking here about The Shroud of Turin.
This in itself as split scientists - some believing it is the shroud of Jesus, others believing it is the shroud of another crucified man. Because of the material and how fragile it is, it makes their tests subjective. Although more recent tests are leaning towards the material was way After Jesus.
I'm not pointing this out to prove God, to prove Jesus was a miraculous man or such.
I'm just wondering if Atheists/non-believers believe Jesus (As a man) roamed this earth?
I had a conversation with a guy doing a science major in my college. He believes Jesus existed, but was one hell of a learned doctor?
Views?
I'm not sure if Jesus (as a man) really existed. As far as I know there is no real evidence for his existence. I mean, if the bible is true then Jesus would have been known in a large region. Historians should have wrote a lot about him and his wonders. But we can't really find anything from non-Christians.
(If I'm wrong you can show me your sources)
I'm not sure if Jesus (as a man) really existed. As far as I know there is no real evidence for his existence. I mean, if the bible is true then Jesus would have been known in a large region. Historians should have wrote a lot about him and his wonders. But we can't really find anything from non-Christians.
(If I'm wrong you can show me your sources)
A few secular books (with no religion intention) did survive, mostly written by Jews: Here's one example.
About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders. [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2]
There is proof that the man who claimed to be Jesus was alive. I'm sure the Athiests in the thread take that into consideration. I am talking here about The Shroud of Turin.
The Shroud of Turin shouldn't really be held as evidence that Jesus existed - there's some evidence that points to the possibility of it being a fake and a scientist managed to reproduce the Shroud.
I'm just wondering if Atheists/non-believers believe Jesus (As a man) roamed this earth?
I'd say that it's a distinct possibility but, if a historical Jesus did walk the earth, he was NOT the man-deity described in the Bible.
well, given that rationalwiki is a biased project, this one can stand aside. As for the second link, an interesting piece of info... but, it's an incomplete reproduction, one has to add spores of endemics in the linen, and more. Also, this process contradicts with the scientific researches on the Shroud that proved absence of any pigments over it.
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