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Posted Jul 13, '12 at 1:07am

314d1

314d1

3,962 posts

Mage asked why would a god be so heavily focused on faith (or require faith, I didn't bring an actual quote) so I was providing what I thought was the reason or a reason why God wouldn't be able to or would choose not to reveal himself to everyone


Because making bets is worth more to him then human lives? Because faith is somehow magical?

But the purpose of my story was why a god would decide not to reveal himself. I really wasn't trying to steer towards science fiction, I was just trying to fill the gap in the Bible for why doesn't God reveal himself. But I suppose it did go a little off topic into the land of science fiction and stuff, so fair enough.


It was just a story, and the bases of your story was that either:

1. Faith gives things magical powers. For some reason.
2. Bets are worth more then human souls

And even then it is just stories, with no biblical backing...
 

Posted Jul 13, '12 at 1:29am

BigP08

BigP08

1,469 posts

Because making bets is worth more to him then human lives? Because faith is somehow magical?

Making bets isn't worth more than human lives; what I was getting at was that God isn't strong enough to keep Satan from unleashing all his evil so he has the option of either revealing himself and then Satan can do whatever he wants since he rules the earth,
Ephesians 2:2
You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.


or, God can agree to keep himself alive only through faith and then Satan will agree only to influence and not possess or attack with demons or whichever.
It was just a story, and the bases of your story was that either:
1. Faith gives things magical powers. For some reason.
2. Bets are worth more then human souls

Those weren't the points I made in the story. The point I made was that God has to choose the lesser of two evils, either he can reveal himself and then Satan can match that by unleashing whatever he can, or he can remain hidden to us except through faith and then Satan will not attack. I never meant to imply that bets are worth more than human souls or that faith has magical powers. Again, I'm not going on the basis of a god of the omni's or even necessarily a god that is infinitely stronger than Satan.
And even then it is just stories, with no biblical backing...

Reading the bible, there are a lot of times where God seems to be making mistakes, which leads me to believe that he can't be perfect and know everything in advance, and being that Satan rules this world (according to the Bible), I have to imagine that any god would want to do whatever he could to limit the damage Satan could inflict on us, including hide in the shadows until the end times. So that's what I was basing it on. If it helps, you can throw out the Animorphs reference, it was just the only literary example I could think of that comes close to the situation I was describing.
 

Posted Jul 13, '12 at 10:47am

314d1

314d1

3,962 posts

Making bets isn't worth more than human lives; what I was getting at was that God isn't strong enough to keep Satan from unleashing all his evil so he has the option of either revealing himself and then Satan can do whatever he wants since he rules the earth,


So he is incompetent then?

or, God can agree to keep himself alive only through faith and then Satan will agree only to influence and not possess or attack with demons or whichever.


Why? That. Does. Not. Make. Since. What is faith, so that it would have magic powers to keep him alive?

Those weren't the points I made in the story. The point I made was that God has to choose the lesser of two evils, either he can reveal himself and then Satan can match that by unleashing whatever he can, or he can remain hidden to us except through faith and then Satan will not attack. I never meant to imply that bets are worth more than human souls or that faith has magical powers. Again, I'm not going on the basis of a god of the omni's or even necessarily a god that is infinitely stronger than Satan.


Then what is faith for? If it is really needed to get to heaven, wouldn't it be better to just reveal himself and deal with the slaughter?

Reading the bible, there are a lot of times where God seems to be making mistakes, which leads me to believe that he can't be perfect and know everything in advance, and being that Satan rules this world (according to the Bible), I have to imagine that any god would want to do whatever he could to limit the damage Satan could inflict on us, including hide in the shadows until the end times. So that's what I was basing it on. If it helps, you can throw out the Animorphs reference, it was just the only literary example I could think of that comes close to the situation I was describing.


Why would Yawheh hiding keep Lucifer from doing anything? If anything, wouldn't that make Lucifer do more? Your just guessing again. And even then, in the OT when he was making most of those mistakes, he was killing a ton of people when he did, so wouldn't that make Lucifer the good guy for keeping him away from the earth?

We could write stories all day. Your stories does not have any logical backing, no theological backing, and generally no backing. It would be a lot more likely to just say Yawheh does not exist.
 

Posted Jul 13, '12 at 10:48am

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

9,436 posts

Making bets isn't worth more than human lives

Need I bring up Job? They bet on if a man could remain faithful even when life sucked. It involved a house falling in and killing 10 of his children (Job 1:2; Job 1:18,19).

what I was getting at was that God isn't strong enough to keep Satan from unleashing all his evil

It has nothing to do with being strong enough. God wants him to do all he wants, other than forcing the people directly, and fail as a leader. God's got plenty of power. He's so confident that He'll let Jesus and some other angels take care of Satan (Rev 20:1-6) while He kills people (Rev 19:11-16).

or, God can agree to keep himself alive only through faith and then Satan will agree only to influence and not possess or attack with demons or whichever.

That's not in the bet, not scripturally anyway. The "Satan can't possess" part applies because that would mean he completely takes away man's freedom to make the choices. He gets to do whatever he wants other than force man away from God directly. That would be cheating. Satan wants to show that going away from God is purely human nature. Satan can create things or situations that would make man want to turn away, such as becoming exceedingly wealthy from illegal activity, but he can't force the choices.

I have to imagine that any god would want to do whatever he could to limit the damage Satan could inflict on us

Nah, He'll just sort it out later with resurrections and abundant food and such, kind of like when the US sends rebuilding aid after a brutal war.
 

Posted Jul 13, '12 at 11:20pm

BigP08

BigP08

1,469 posts

Why? That. Does. Not. Make. Since. What is faith, so that it would have magic powers to keep him alive?

Ok, I think I see what I did there. I didn't mean literally keep him alive, I meant "alive" like the only way for us to know anything about him is to pray and have faith. Sorry I didn't clarrify that XD
Why would Yawheh hiding keep Lucifer from doing anything? If anything, wouldn't that make Lucifer do more? Your just guessing again. And even then, in the OT when he was making most of those mistakes, he was killing a ton of people when he did, so wouldn't that make Lucifer the good guy for keeping him away from the earth?

I'm saying that as long as God and Satan aren't common knowledge, then as long as God doesn't make himself common knowledge, neither will Satan, he'll only attack in subtle ways.
So he is incompetent then?

If that's what you wanna read into it, then sure, if Satan is more powerful than God on earth you can define him as incompetent. I'm not saying he necessarily is, but that if he is stronger on earth then God can't simply will away what Satan conjures up.
Then what is faith for? If it is really needed to get to heaven, wouldn't it be better to just reveal himself and deal with the slaughter?

As I said early, it's possible that faith was emphasized simply for the reason that the only way to know God was through faith. I think what matters is that God would have the final decision over your soul. It would just be easier for him to influence somebody who has faith to improve themselves.
We could write stories all day. Your stories does not have any logical backing, no theological backing, and generally no backing. It would be a lot more likely to just say Yawheh does not exist.

Harsh but all right. I was only trying to speculate why faith would be so emphasized in scripture, not justify the faith position altogether (that's a different discussion) but I think I sorta confused you with the "alive through faith" thing.

Will read what you post next but I feel like we're talking past each other. Either I'm not articulating what I'm trying to say very well or I'm misunderstanding what you're saying in response. So I may or may not respond depending. If I don't, you've destroyed another Christian with your spirit-crushing debate skills. :'( (jk) See ya round.

Need I bring up Job? They bet on if a man could remain faithful even when life sucked. It involved a house falling in and killing 10 of his children (Job 1:2; Job 1:18,19).

All right, I spoke too soon XD I meant that I wasn't trying to imply that bets are more important than human lives, not that there were no instances in the Bible of such a scenario.
That's not in the bet, not scripturally anyway. The "Satan can't possess" part applies because that would mean he completely takes away man's freedom to make the choices. He gets to do whatever he wants other than force man away from God directly. That would be cheating. Satan wants to show that going away from God is purely human nature. Satan can create things or situations that would make man want to turn away, such as becoming exceedingly wealthy from illegal activity, but he can't force the choices.

I see what you mean, but I wasn't pulling that just from scripture. I'm saying that logically, if God doesn't reveal himself, Satan might not want to scare people into religion by revealing himself. But if God reveals himself then Satan might as well too. So it's not so much a bet as an unspoken agreement. Satan technically could do all of those things but won't as long as God doesn't make himself known.
It has nothing to do with being strong enough. God wants him to do all he wants, other than forcing the people directly, and fail as a leader. God's got plenty of power. He's so confident that He'll let Jesus and some other angels take care of Satan (Rev 20:1-6) while He kills people (Rev 19:11-16).

Even so, the current situation, for whatever reason would be that God can't or won't interfere to a degree to completely neutralize what Satan can do, so it's better to keep all the supernatural things hidden in order to coerce Satan into doing the same.
Nah, He'll just sort it out later with resurrections and abundant food and such, kind of like when the US sends rebuilding aid after a brutal war.

I love political analogies ;)
 

Posted Jul 13, '12 at 11:33pm

314d1

314d1

3,962 posts

Ok, I think I see what I did there. I didn't mean literally keep him alive, I meant "alive" like the only way for us to know anything about him is to pray and have faith. Sorry I didn't clarrify that XD


Why? Certainly some of his actions would leave some lasting effects that we can actually see, for example a flood across all of Earth would defiantly leave some evidence, and if he killed all the Egyptian army in the Red see we could probably find a ton of dead people in the Red sea...

I'm saying that as long as God and Satan aren't common knowledge, then as long as God doesn't make himself common knowledge, neither will Satan, he'll only attack in subtle ways.


If that's what you wanna read into it, then sure, if Satan is more powerful than God on earth you can define him as incompetent. I'm not saying he necessarily is, but that if he is stronger on earth then God can't simply will away what Satan conjures up.


Then why would you call him god, if there is a being more powerful then him?

As I said early, it's possible that faith was emphasized simply for the reason that the only way to know God was through faith. I think what matters is that God would have the final decision over your soul. It would just be easier for him to influence somebody who has faith to improve themselves.


That sounds like something a stoner would make up, except less likely.

Hell, if we are making up stories why would faith be a strengthening point? What if it was a weakness? If anything, that would make more since. Lets say Yawheh is weakened by faith- rather then strengthened - but faith is required to enter heaven. So he was able to use his powers when he only had a handful of desert dwellers under him, who where supposed to try to avoid converting others. He then used his powers to set up the most effective system he could, but now that he has so many followers he can not interact with the world? No story makes any since.
 

Posted Jul 13, '12 at 11:43pm

BigP08

BigP08

1,469 posts

Why? Certainly some of his actions would leave some lasting effects that we can actually see, for example a flood across all of Earth would defiantly leave some evidence, and if he killed all the Egyptian army in the Red see we could probably find a ton of dead people in the Red sea...

I was referring to modern times, not indefinitely since the beginning of the human race.
Then why would you call him god, if there is a being more powerful then him?

Just because Satan is stronger on earth doesn't mean he's indefinitely stronger. And besides, you don't need to worship the most powerful supernatural thing out there because what if it's evil?
That sounds like something a stoner would make up, except less likely.

Wow, you are quite merciless in a debate. Not a bad thing, just something you don't find too often. Keep it up, though.
Lets say Yawheh is weakened by faith- rather then strengthened - but faith is required to enter heaven.

Yeah, I'm definitely talking past you if I gave the impression that God is strengthened by faith. So I will concede the dicussion. Cheers.
 

Posted Jul 13, '12 at 11:55pm

314d1

314d1

3,962 posts

I was referring to modern times, not indefinitely since the beginning of the human race.


It would not require faith in the modern times, if you just found proof of the biblical stories. The proof should still be here, wouldn't it?

Just because Satan is stronger on earth doesn't mean he's indefinitely stronger. And besides, you don't need to worship the most powerful supernatural thing out there because what if it's evil?


How do you decide if something is evil? Yawheh murdered thousands in the Bible, while Lucifer, the light bringer, murdered less then a dozen. And the dozen was with Yahweh's blessing. Wouldn't that make him less evil?

Yeah, I'm definitely talking past you if I gave the impression that God is strengthened by faith. So I will concede the dicussion. Cheers.


Concede means surrender, by biblical rules I must now slaughter all your people, take your virgins as slaves, slaughter every single animal, and salt the Earth. It is in the Bible, sorry.
 

Posted Jul 16, '12 at 9:13am

alalalalbok

alalalalbok

3 posts

my religion(islam) is perfectly fits to science so we muslims never argue about God.An example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2s14T6x5AM
watch it

 

Posted Aug 12, '12 at 9:21pm

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

9,436 posts

An example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2s14T6x5AM
watch it


The part supposedly describing the big bang more closely depicts the atmospheric barier seperating earth from space.[21.30: Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them] It's just vague enough to fit a multitude of things.

When he says that the moon reflects the light of the sun and asks, "Who could have mentioned this 1400 years ago?", I would reply "Anyone," and point out that the Chinese said the same thing about 700 years before that, and the Greeks about 300 years before the Chinese. It wasn't some exclusive secret.

When he asks, "Who could have mentioned 1400 years ago that the shape of the earth is geospherical?", I would again reply, "Anyone," and point out that the Greeks said the same thing nearly 1200 years before that. By that logic, we should all be worshiping Zeus. He is also incorrect in stating that in 1597, Sir Francis Drake was the first to circumnavigate the globe. He was the second, completing his voyage in 1580. He died in 1596. Juan Sebastian Elanco was the first to sail around the world and did so from 1519 to 1521.

For the part about the sun rotating about itself, the mentioned verse does not seem to support this. [21.33: And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.] It means they travel in orbits, but doesn't say anything for rotating about an axis.

Stating that heaven is higher than the earth is irrelevant to the expansion of the universe. [21.47: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample]

I went through every instance where he mentioned how the Quran supposedly describes the water "cycle". It merely states that clouds form (not saying how) and it rains. Nothing about how the water evaporated and collected or where it came from, thus the given "cycle" was incomplete.

It states nothing about male/female plants, just that there are a variety. [20.53: Who made the earth for you an expanse and made for you therein paths and sent down water from the cloud; then thereby We have brought forth many species of various herbs.]

It states that mountains exist, not of their prevention of earthquakes. [78.6-7 Have We not made the earth an even expanse? And the mountains as projections (thereon)?]

Where he said it tells of biology, it was a parable (it says so itself) against the weakness of false gods. [29.41: The parable of those who take guardians besides Allah is as the parable of the spider that makes for itself a house; and most surely the frailest of the houses is the spider's house did they but know.]

Of bees, simply the locations at which they can be found. [16.68: And your Lord revealed to the bee saying: Make hives in the mountains and in the trees and in what they build]

For the part about ants, I think he gave the wrong verse.[27.17-18: And his hosts of the jinn and the men and the birds were gathered to him, and they were formed into groups. Until when they came to the valley of the Naml, a Namlite said: O Naml! enter your houses, (that) Sulaiman and his hosts may not crush you while they do not know.]


For referencing to the texts, I'm using the first translation set provided by this site.
 
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