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Theism and Atheism

Posted Jun 7, '13 at 3:30pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,798 posts

Knight

You can look at anything, and say something made it without evidence. Literally, this is a baseless claim. Anyone can look at the same thing and say whatever they want. A ghost did it. Aliens. God. Allah. Yaweh, Shiva, Zeus, or any other supernatural force.


Case in point.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/419075_429499943815002_1240635425_n.jpg
 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 12:48am

OperationNilo

OperationNilo

4,066 posts

The WEPR get more and more ridiculous every day.

 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 1:54am

pangtongshu

pangtongshu

10,108 posts

You can look at anything, and say something made it without evidence. Literally, this is a baseless claim. Anyone can look at the same thing and say whatever they want. A ghost did it. Aliens. God. Allah. Yaweh, Shiva, Zeus, or any other supernatural force.

Case in point.


I'll one up you.

If the almighty Steve doesn't exist

Then...he is alright with you believing that..and just hopes you live a life full of positive qualities and of good nature.
 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 2:02am

mbbs112

mbbs112

196 posts

interesting and heres a little more evidence and try explaining it okay and try to mind your language as bull**** is a bad word

There are some things which you guys said for example tthat you can see most things with the help of technology but you cant see yourself hence there is a limit to the human sight and there are many verses in the Quran that explain how lightning is produced and how it looks under the sea even though people at the time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) could just put their hand inside a sea but couldnt see anything although how is it that they had the Quran which has the answers to everything and yet you guys say that a human was the author of the Quran? Many scientists have read the quran and seen that many things that were discovered later on after the 14th century were already written in the Holy Quran such as female bees act as workers for the queen and that male bees mate with the queen and die after 90 days and that how lightning is made and that we humans didnt evolve at all but originated from Hazrat Adam and Hazrat Hawa.

[quote]The scientific story of creation of life is just one example of how the Holy Quran convinces its readers that no human on this Planet could have authored this Book. Many of the scientific facts revealed became known only in the last century or so. The Messenger of God, Prophet Muhammed (Peace and blessings of God be upon him) was an illiterate man. It was impossible for him or for any other human being 1428 years ago to know about such facts.

This explains that most of the facts which you guys know today which you learned from after the 14th century were told to The Holy Prophet (pbuh) in the form of revelations brought by Hazrat Jibrael which was later made into a book the Holy Quran

 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 2:15am

mbbs112

mbbs112

196 posts

O humans! Be pious (careful of your duty) to your Lord, Who created you from a single self (soul), and from it He created its mate, and from them He has spread a multitude of men and women (Al-Nissa, 4: 1).

This verse tells us that the beginning of life was a single self (soul), then its mate came out of it. Biological science tells us that the earliest form of life was represented by single cell organisms found in water, then these multiplied by splitting themselves. With the course of time, reproduction evolved to become by mating pairs, instead of the archaic forms of splitting or dividing.

24.45 . Allah has created every animal out of water . Of them (is a category which) walks upon its belly, (another which) walks upon two legs, and ( a third which) walks upon four . Allah creates what He wills. Allah is Able to do everything (he wants) .

In this verse, Allah (Praise to Him) tells us that animals were originally created out of water (as was the origin of humans). Some of these animals walk on their belly (like snakes), others walk on two legs or on four legs.
We know that almost all animals except kangaroos (and penguins) walk on four legs. However, for Prophet Muhammed (Peace and blessings be upon him) and old world humans at the time of revelation (1429 years ago), they did not know that there was an animal which walked on two legs in Australia. Only God knew that and has told us about it, as another piece of evidence that He is the author of the Holy Qurâan, not any human .

32.8 . Then He made his offspring from a quintessence of despised water (coming out of parents).

32.9. Then He shaped him (in due proportions), and breathed in him of His Spirit, and made for you hearing, sight, and hearts; little thanks you give.

When the fetus reaches a degree of mental development that allows it tor receive information, Godâs basic software is installed in it. An angel blows part of Godâs spirit in His new creation. This includes at least two programs.

The first is shared with other living beings, in order to make the organs of an organism functioning internally and automatically. The second is unique to humans in that it allows humans to distinguish good from evil and consequently enables them to choose their actions.

15.26 . We created the human being from stinking, smooth, (and wet) clay.

This verse gives a very specific description of the environment where life started. It refers to swamps where still water is combined with the earth soil, which creates stinking but smooth clay easy to take different forms.
This is exactly what biologists have come up with to explain the beginning of life on Earth.

[quote]7. 11. And We created you (humans, in plural form), then fashioned you (made you in the image you are, also addressing humans in plural form), then said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam! And they prostrated, all except Iblis (another name for Satan), who was not of those who made prostration.

In this verse, God Almighty praise to Him is telling angels that Adam (and his offspring by implication) is higher in rank than angels themselves. Thatâs why He asked them to make prostration to Adam as an acknowledgement from them that he is higher than they are in the ladder of creation. All angels obeyed except Iblis (Satan) who refused arguing that he is better than humans, saying that he was created of fire while Adam was created of clay.

Humans have been more preferred by God as higher in rank than angels because of their ability to acquire more knowledge and because of their ability to choose between right and wrong. While angels are created to be obedient to God, humans have been given the ability to do that by choice. However, Satan refused to acknowledge that humans are better than him and asked God to give him (and his offspring) the chance to prove his point, by derailing humans from the right path. God accepted the challenge and delayed Satan's punishment to also include humans who listen to him. (Footnote # 3)

The Arabic words relevant to this article in the above verse are the verbs khalaqa (created) and sawwara (fashioned the image). These two words refer to the two stages of creating life first, then increasing its complexity, and finally bringing it to the human stage (Verse 82.7 above), which is higher in rank than angels.

This verse gives support to the argument of creating humans through stages of creation, fashioning, and education (2.31). Neither Bin Katheer nor Yusuf Ali could explain (consistently) why the verse starts by addressing humans in plural form (We created you (khalaqnakum), then fashioned you (sawarnakum). After using "then" to indicate the passing of a period of time, God praise to Him tells angels to prostrate to Adam, who is one human being. This means that Adam was chosen as the best example of humans who have been created, fashioned, and educated by God, in order to win the contest of knowledge vis-a-vis angels.
 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 2:17am

mbbs112

mbbs112

196 posts

[quote]10. 92. Today, We save you (Pharaoh of Egypt) through saving your body so that you may be a sign for those after you . Lo! Most people are heedless of Our signs.

This verse is part of the story of Moussa (Moses), peace be upon him, and the Pharaoh of Egypt, which is told in several chapters of the Holy Qur'an, including Younus, Chapter 10, Verses 79-92.

Bin Katheer (Volume 2: 203-205) mentioned that when Moussa (pbuh) hit the sea with his stick, it split like a huge cliff on each side, creating twelve paths for the twelve Israelite tribes, each one separated from the other by a glass window. When the Pharaoh and his army arrived and saw the awesome view, they were afraid to proceed but the senior angel, Jibril (Gabriel) encouraged them to continue by marching in front of them. When all of them were in the middle of the path, God ordered the sea waters to merge again, drowning them all.

Bin Katheer added that despite what they saw by their eyes, the Israelites asked Moussa to show them the body of the Pharaoh to make sure that he died. God gave them what they wanted by throwing the body of the Pharaoh to the shore, so they can see it, as a sign of God's punishment for those who oppress believers.

I see a different interpretation for the Arabic words liman khalfaka (to those after you). The Israelites of Moussa (pbuh) lived at the time of the Pharaoh, not after his time. Therefore, the sign was intended to be to those who would come after that time, simply because the Israelites saw the miracle and lived it by themselves.

The interpretation I see closer to the meaning of these words in the verse is that God decided to preserve the Pharaoh's body to be a sign for the generations of humans who would come after the Pharaoh's time.

The Pharaoh's body was probably carried to the Egyptian capital by those who stayed away and did not drown, to be mummified, in order to be preserved for future generations of humans to see. Mummies of the Egyptian pharaohs were discovered in 1898 and now displayed in the Royal Mummies Room of the Egyptian Museum, in Cairo.

There is no agreement between historians and biblical scholars about the pharaohs involved in the story or the time they lived. Some authors identify the oppressive Pharaoh as Seti I, the Exodus pharaoh as Ramses II, and the Exodus event about 1290 BC, according to Encyclopedia Britannica.

 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 2:23am

Kasic

Kasic

5,746 posts

mbbs112, you're simply reading these passages to mean what you want them to. I read them and do not see any of this. You're interpreting them with a bias and skewing various metaphors to fit what you want. All we really have here is a bunch of vague sayings that you're construing into modern science.

This is cherry picking, plain and simple. You're not proving anything by throwing a bunch of verses at us and saying they mean what you say they do.

 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 2:30am

mbbs112

mbbs112

196 posts

this is the evidence that Allah exists! These verses came before our time in the 14th century at the time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the people of this century mostly discovered this in the 17th 18th 19th 20th or 21st century when people back then in the 14th century knew of this since the creator of the world Allah sent the Holy Quran to them and that it would be impossible for a human being to be the Author of the Holy Quran so God exists

 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 2:37am

pangtongshu

pangtongshu

10,108 posts

female bees act as workers for the queen


Could be found out through observation

that male bees mate with the queen


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPkTQjaAFflFjHcgAAnDVWb2Mf86d6djcv5CfJK8KRQGAGvhWw

die after 90 days


Could be found out through observation

explain how lightning is produced


Source?

how it looks under the sea


Could be found out through observation

that we humans didnt evolve at all but originated from Hazrat Adam and Hazrat Hawa.


But you see..that part is wrong...so...
 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 2:38am

HahiHa

HahiHa

5,821 posts

Moderator

for example tthat you can see most things with the help of technology but you cant see yourself

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "see yourself", but ,what about mirrors? Or, if you want a more 'extravagant' example. photography.

there is a limit to the human sight

Which is why we build tools and machines to measure what we cannot.

there are many verses in the Quran that explain how lightning is produced

Care to show these verses?

although how is it that they had the Quran which has the answers to everything and yet you guys say that a human was the author of the Quran?

Does it contain anything about handys and satellites? Or even more modern stuff we haven't invented yet? If it does, I might consider this argument.

Many scientists have read the quran and seen that many things that were discovered later on after the 14th century were already written in the Holy Quran such as female bees act as workers for the queen and that male bees mate with the queen and die after 90 days and that how lightning is made and that we humans didnt evolve at all but originated from Hazrat Adam and Hazrat Hawa.

You're implying that people back then were too stupid to find those out for themselves (like the bee thing). That is an insult to your predecessors.
And yes, we did evolve. Just because your book says we didn't doesn't make it true.

Biological science tells us that the earliest form of life was represented by single cell organisms found in water, then these multiplied by splitting themselves. With the course of time, reproduction evolved to become by mating pairs, instead of the archaic forms of splitting or dividing.

Here you basically agree with evolution.

We know that almost all animals except kangaroos (and penguins) walk on four legs.

Sooooooo wrong. Most lifeforms on earth don't even have legs, and those who do usually have multitudes (arthropods). But this is completely ignored in that verse. And since it says they all came from water, how is it it ignores fishes, jellyfishes, echinoderms and all those animals?

However, for Prophet Muhammed (Peace and blessings be upon him) and old world humans at the time of revelation (1429 years ago), they did not know that there was an animal which walked on two legs in Australia. Only God knew that and has told us about it, as another piece of evidence that He is the author of the Holy Qurâan, not any human .

Again you're insulting them by saying they were idiots without contact with the rest of the world. And where do you leave room for prosic creativity? No-legs, two-legs and four-legs is like the most intuitive thing to write down, yet it doesn not quite reflect bio-diversity. Therefore men wrote it.

This is exactly what biologists have come up with to explain the beginning of life on Earth.

Sooo wrong again. And way to be recent. Only the bible or the Qu'ran say we came from mud. Actually life most likely originated at hot springs in the deep sea.

This verse gives support to the argument of creating humans through stages of creation, fashioning, and education (2.31).

All these verses are nice stories, but don't prove anything, again.
 
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