Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
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How can you believe something you can't even understand?
Silly mage, faith is the answer! If you do not know, make something up that sounds convincing and say you must have faith!
How do you know the Abrahamic God is the right God and it's not some other god?
If God can not be tested then there is no way of distinguishing God from fantasy. This is why we work from facts not opinion, so we can distinguish the difference. So what can be factually shown that God's existence is correct?
I've asked this of many people, and I never get a clear response. Most of the time it's something akin to, "Jesus was god's son," i've never asked a muslim though, so I don't know what their typical response would be, probably "It's allah's will that we know the truth."
"Of course one cannot prove miracles do not exist, but apart from the well known difficulty of proving a negative one does not have that burden, which is actually on the claimant. Invariably, when we subtract the cases which have been clearly disproved, or which have plausible counter- explanations, or that are inadmissible because they cannot be substantiated, there seems insufficient grounds for invoking a miracle."LOL. You claim "lausible" explanations are enough to disprove a miracle, while you require cast-iron evidence to prove a miracle, and even then you say it's not enough. Double standards detected.
Might be able to use a pig as a stand in for a human body. It would really just have to be a recently dead body prior to it's initial stages of decay.Probably, though with a pig you might have difficulties interpreting the possible images. Anyway, one can test this using a pig.
http://www.miraclesceptic.com/solarmiracle.htmlSkepticism is expressed, but not explained.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/joe_nickell/miracles.htmlFatima descriptions misread. Fatima witnesses report the severe reduction of sun's brightness to the point one can look up at the sun without straining his eyes. "I looked fixedly at the sun, which seemed pale and did not hurt my eyes" Wiki.
because you'd "rather be safe than sorry?"Mundanely, yes. Divinely, not just that, but you obviously don't believe in divine reasons.
By stoning them and telling them they are going to hell?Blatant trolling.
Find anywhere in the ten commandments where it says these things are wrong.You want us to follow the laws by letter, not by spirit, this is wrong.
There are more then just the ten commandments. In total there are actually 613 commandments.
Okay, in regards to the shroud, may I direct you folks to the Body FarmDecomposition alone is not enough. The requested test is to attempt to reproduce an image on a shroud.
They test how the body decomposes in a variety of conditions.
Yes, but according to Jesus your also suppose to keep the other 603 as well.Jesus said: "Don't judge, and you'll not be judged. Don't condemn, and you'll not be condemned." Sentencing someone to death by stoning is actually removed by Jesus in Jn 8:1-11, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." Do you claim you're without sin to advise us to do like this?
I offer you to read the bible cover to cover like I did. Read the parts that aren't told in the sermons and see how it makes you feel.I did, and I feel normally. At that time people were a lot more cruel than in times of Jesus, so you just couldn't introduce modern norms of tolerance to others. The humanity has to be brought to light with care and patience. And if you're so likely speaking about feelings, let me remember one passage, Mt 19:8-9: "He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.""
Christianity. Jeudaism. Two compleatly different religons.No, it's like Christianity is an expansion of Judaism, without circumcision and several other Judaist specific things. After all, Jesus made a new testament with the humanity with His blood, like God made the old testament with Moses and Jewish people. Circumcision was a sign of a person accepting the Old Testament laws and God as his God, now a baptism is such a sign of accepting New Testament and God as his God, and Jesus as his Lord and Savior.
Vesper, you fail math.Hehe, did you read about me throwing in digits of what is a probability of all Fatima witnesses to see the same vision if it's not there? It ended up being 2.8e-4516 with a very bold set of assumptions. Isn't this a highly remote probability? And if it WAS there, and you not providing any valid scientific explanation of this behavior, what's the probability of this actually happening without God interfering?
And if it WAS there, and you not providing any valid scientific explanation of this behavior, what's the probability of this actually happening without God interfering?
What is the probability that if I toss a coin, it will turn up heads?
What is the probability that if I toss a coin, it will turn up tails?
Now, representing H for heads and T for tails, then what is the probability that I will go (in order) HTHTHTHTHHTHTTHTHHTHTTHTHHTHTHTHHHTHTHTTHTHTHHHTHTHTTH or something like that? But I did toss a coin 50 times, and it went in this pattern (list pattern). What are the odds of that? less than 1/1 Million Billion.
Probability games are often fallible because you discount all the other almost infinitely unlikely possibilities that there are out there.
This is the first criticism of using probability to try to prove a point.
The second is that if you accept logic and a few assumptions, the odds of God are 0. You can't just say "the odds of this are 2.8e-4516" without comparing it to the alternatives. Because this compares it to nothing really; this doesn't accurately represent the "odds" that God exists or not. Like, what are the odds of the sun actually dancing? 2.8e-9999?
About Fatima's miracle, there are many proposed ideas of ways that you could have created the illusion / miracle.
According to Wikipedia,
Staring at the sun could have caused by "temporary retinal distortion" or something like that.
Not all witnesses saw the sun "dance"
There are some others, which offer somewhat-of-an-explanation. You also have to compare the odds of each of these against the odds of the actual miracle occurring as well.
Now, representing H for heads and T for tails, then what is the probability that I will go (in order) ...What's the probability that in the white noise you'll hear a lady speaking (per second of clear speech)? A lot less than your 1e-15. And this example is wrong since you recorded the sequence first, and then displayed it. The probability of ANY sequence of 50 HT to appear after 50 tosses is 1.0, in reality it's close to 1 with the rest being chances that you'll fail to recover your coin after an overentusiastic toss, like it can fall into sewers if there are any around. So, if you will first write a sequence, then toss coin and it will spell exactly this, this event will indeed have a 1/2^50 chance to happen.
Like, what are the odds of the sun actually dancing? 2.8e-9999?Actually, meaning as an astronomical body? A WHOLE LOT less, you need a certain level of coherence in Brownian movement of particles within the entire solar body. Let's assume we took a single particle close to the center of the sun (to eliminate corona) that appears to be moving left upwards from the Earth's observer. We need all of the particles in at least the radius of sun minus its corona to move the same side (with Brownian movement it's 0.5 per particle). Now, the sun weighs 1.98e30 kg and consists largely of hydrogen (73,46% by photospheric spectral data) and helium. Let's only take hydrogen into equation since we can deduce the number of hydrogen particles. The total mass of hydrogen in the sun is 1.45e30 kg, the molar mass of hydrogen is 1.008 g, thus the total number of particles is 6.02e23*1.44e33 = 8.67e56. Thus, the probability upper bound for the sun to actually move is 1/2^(8.67e56) ~= 1e-(2.61e56), a number with 2.61e56 zeroes :P
erm, I have mistaken with molar mass by a factor of 1000 the number of zeroes dropped to 2.61e53.
The fact that everything happen is unlikely. For something to be be miraculous it has to either be impossible or it has to be the incredibly unlikely event out of several likely ones. When you shuffle say 2 packs of cards together the result is 1 in 102! which is incredibly unlikely but you know it has to be one of those possible results so it's not an unexpected result.
Fatima descriptions misread. Fatima witnesses report the severe reduction of sun's brightness to the point one can look up at the sun without straining his eyes. "I looked fixedly at the sun, which seemed pale and did not hurt my eyes"
That sort of thing couldn't possibly happen due to localized atmospheric phenomena.... >_>
No, it's like Christianity is an expansion of Judaism, without circumcision and several other Judaist specific things.
Last I checked circumcision was quite prevalent in Christianity.
You want us to follow the laws by letter, not by spirit, this is wrong.
I want you to think for yourself and stop acting like your game of make believe is real.
I'm guessing "by spirit" you mean cheery pick the hell out of it and reinterpret or ignore the parts you don't like until it says what you want it to say.
A law is a law to be followed to the letter. Divine laws must be followed. No sane person could follow Christianity's laws. So they can't be divine. A book of divine laws should all be divine laws. Since some are not divine all must not be divine. So christianity is just a book with no divine meaning. So why do people call it holy?
A law is a law to be followed to the letter.This is a correct definition for hypocrisy, which is condemned by Jesus, if you read the Bible. The further statements are based on false.
1 in a billion simply means, if a billion trials are performed, one of them will produce the improbable result.Are you comparing 1e-9, being 1 in a billion, to 1e-4515? You fail exponential math.
Last I checked circumcision was quite prevalent in Christianity.Prevalent - no, however several orthodox churches still hold to circumcising the men being baptized. Catholicism now leaves circumcision to a person's desire, seeing it not necessary in religious aspect of being a Christian.
I'm guessing "by spirit" you mean cheery pick the hell out of it and reinterpret or ignore the parts you don't like until it says what you want it to say.This is a bit harder to explain, what does it mean to read the laws in spirit. Mortal laws can't be read by spirit, as they have no spirit. Divine laws are filled with Holy Spirit, so every commandment in there should be viewed within the whole and in the sight of "love thy neighbor". This means one can't stone other one to death because the law said so, but talk to him saying he did sin, and urging him to throw the sin away. If you kill someone, you prevent him from repenting that could occur later, thus you're depriving him of possible salvation - this is never a good deed. God can still save whomever He likes, but we must not say "God will save him", or as one of us DID in crusades, "Kill everyone, God will sort His people out up there".
This is a correct definition for hypocrisy, which is condemned by Jesus, if you read the Bible. The further statements are based on false.
Prevalent - no, however several orthodox churches still hold to circumcising the men being baptized. Catholicism now leaves circumcision to a person's desire, seeing it not necessary in religious aspect of being a Christian.
I find this hard to believe considering the Pope had been promoting the idea that condoms cause AIDS and circumcision prevents it.
Divine laws are filled with Holy Spirit
I need to get that screencap of the Judge in Ghostbusters 2 and have it say WTF.
so every commandment in there should be viewed within the whole and in the sight of "love thy neighbor". This means one can't stone other one to death because the law said so, but talk to him saying he did sin, and urging him to throw the sin away. If you kill someone, you prevent him from repenting that could occur later, thus you're depriving him of possible salvation - this is never a good deed. God can still save whomever He likes, but we must not say "God will save him", or as one of us DID in crusades, "Kill everyone, God will sort His people out up there".
I'll take this as a yes.
1 in a billion simply means, if a billion trials are performed, one of them will produce the improbable result.
Not a certainty but it is the numbers that say that one of those billion should have the occurrence. It's like tossing a coin - you're not going to get Heads, Tails, Heads, Tails, Heads Tails.
Well, you might. But a 50% chance doesn't mean you will get an even amount, in 10 flips I can get 7 heads and 3 tails. It's just most probable that I'd get 5 of each.
- H
I find this hard to believe considering the Pope had been promoting the idea that condoms cause AIDS and circumcision prevents it.Links please? Never heard anything like THIS. Opposing the use of condoms because they are designed to prevent children is one, and arguments of them reducing the risk of AIDS transmission is another. Journalists in fact like baked out sensations, and could say such conclusion ignoring its non-sequitur.
I take that pic as a lack of arguments. And that WTF stuff is also named lack of arguments.
I'll take this as a yes.A yes to what? No counterarguments means your point of "cheery picking the hell out of laws" is false.
1 in a billion simply means, if a billion trials are performed, one of them will produce the improbable result.
It doesn't really mean that it means that there should be one occurrence in a billion trials, it just means that in every occurrence there is a tiny chance that it would happen. On the first occurrence it could happen but if it does that doesn't mean it won't happen for another billion trials. It doesn't matter how unlikely it is it COULD happen. Statistics are meaningless to a single person.
This is a correct definition for hypocrisy, which is condemned by Jesus, if you read the Bible. The further statements are based on false.
I take that pic as a lack of arguments. And that WTF stuff is also named lack of arguments.
I don't think Mage understands what you mean by this part.
A law is a law to be followed to the letter.
This is a correct definition for hypocrisy
In case you are unaware (as it seems that you are) hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. Putting out a law and following it to the letter is the OPPOSITE of hypocricy.
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