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Theism and Atheism

Posted Apr 4, '11 at 8:36pm

MRWalker82

MRWalker82

3,869 posts

Moderator

I think the point has been made guys. No need to drive this thread into the ground with barely veiled (and borderline inappropriate) sexual innuendos.

 

Posted Apr 4, '11 at 8:40pm

Einfach

Einfach

1,433 posts

Homosexuality is not a learned trait, it's based on genetics.

I personally doubt that this is entirely true.  I've read that a lot of attraction (e.g. read about the Westmarcker effect) is due to imprinting during the first few years of one's life.

 

Posted Apr 4, '11 at 8:43pm

Einfach

Einfach

1,433 posts

Masturbation, sodomy and other sexual behavior that's deemed perverted is so because it uses sexuality for something that is not procrastination, for what it is designed

Many things do not serve the same purposes for what they were "designed."  This in itself is not bad.

 

Posted Apr 4, '11 at 11:35pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,667 posts

Knight

I personally doubt that this is entirely true.  I've read that a lot of attraction (e.g. read about the Westmarcker effect) is due to imprinting during the first few years of one's life.

There have been children raise in the exact same environment and yet one turned out gay while the other not. There have been children raise in all respects to be female and yet turned out to still be heterosexual. The Westermarck effect had nothing to do with sexual orientation but rather provided an explanation on why we don't often see positive assortative pairing habits between siblings.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
Case studies of sexual orientation in twins

 

Posted Apr 4, '11 at 11:38pm

Einfach

Einfach

1,433 posts

There have been children raise in the exact same environment and yet one turned out gay while the other not.

But with identical twins, one can be gay and the other can turn out not-gay.

Again, it's most likely a genetic tendency + imprinting that causes it.

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 12:04am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,667 posts

Knight

Again, it's most likely a genetic tendency + imprinting that causes it.

Both being raised in the same environment and both have the same genes it should result in both being of the same sexual orientation. With epigenetics we can explain how one can result in being homosexual and the other not as the gene expression can vary between them.

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 1:47am

vesperbot

vesperbot

986 posts

Who decided that we get hurt when we sin? The devil shouldn't care for it since he got us anyway then. So I only see the possibility of it being god's work

God didn't design us to ever sin, though He granted us free will and thus the ability to turn away from Him and sin. Yes, it's His work that if we sin, we get hurt. But, if a child did something and got hurt, does a parent explain him why he got hurt so he won't repeat this? God wishes us to distinguish truth from lies, a good deed from a sin, and He wishes us to not sin by making us be hurt if we commit sins.

as children of god, why are we so susceptible to temptation? It kinda seems like god wanted us to be weak-willed, in opposition to most of his angels.

Yes, God made us imperfect, probably because of angels being made perfect, and some of them irreversably turned away from God, thus becoming demons. Our imperfectness allows us to be fallible, but also allows us to understand if we fell and ask for help, from both God ang neighbors. Our imperfectness is what allows us to grow while we live, in what Church calls "holiness", that is life with God. Temptations are needed so we can have examples of what's bad and what's good, and can learn to choose good.

So we should stone people to death for even the most minor of things?

You probably mistake the two sides of laws: the sentences available for breaking a certain law can be changed, like removing a death penalty for certain crimes, and instating a long-term jail instead, while the definitions of crimes do not change, thus, homosexual actions are still sins or "crimes".

Thank you so much Vesper for showing just how much attention you give other people's posts. I have not once said i'm gay, E1337, however, has more than once.

Oh man, I'm awfully sorry. This also means that I have overdone in this debate, starting to debate with the only reason of proving me right instead of the reason of explaining God's ways.

How can someone enjoy Heaven, knowing someone they love is being tortured in hell?

Who has left the world first, the one in Heaven or the one that ended up in Hell? However, in both cases the loving one will pray God for the other's salvation. If the loving one's love is true, his prayers will also be true and guided by love, and God will grant that person salvation. In case of the loving one to enter Heaven prior to the other one's leaving the world, the loving one's love is proven to be true, thus he will be heard.

The staff maintains that they're not responsible, since they told the children two years ago not to go near the exposed wiring.

This association is wrong, since God constantly reminds His children about what not to do, and more so when the events were back there in the paradise, since Adam and Eve were a lot closer to God than the best of us are.

If God is omniscient (knows everything past present and future), why would he make me knowing I would be an atheist and go to hell for eternity? This question goes for anyone who will go to hell.

He gives you signs of His presence and urges you to turn back to Him, and when a person dies, his book of life will be presented to him with full explanation of what choices he made that led him into the state of denying God. This book contains the entire set of information about the person in question, including his thoughts and hidden intentions, and by these thoughts, intentions and deeds will a person be judged. While you are here, you can do actions that will change your future outcome, you just need to decide that you will.

Why would God place the tree and the snake there in the first place if not to temped, and knowing full well that they would be (omniscience)?

Please read above in this post regarding temptations.

All you have to do is choice to feel sexual aroused by looking at something like this

I'm not. And, you are tempting others to become sexually aroused by the pictures you provide. Remember that Jesus said: "Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes!"

I think I'll stop the discussion about homosexuality. I have tried to find out logical reasons about why homosexuality is wrong, have found several, and also have found them demolished by plain reductio ad absurdum. But, I have also found that I was wrong in determinstion of sin here. Only homosexual actions are sins, but homosexuality in itself is not a sin but a cross, and a heavy one. It's normal I think it's normal that some of you who are aware of their tendency to go into sodomy succumb to this temptation, though there are indeed those that are in constant fight for their holiness. I have fell to the false dichotomy of homo vs hetero, while there is a middle condition of solo, with one of the possible lifestyles of being a solo adopting parent. It seems to be correct that if a homo-inclined person is enforced into heterosexuality, it can lead to severe disaster in his family, but this is no excuse for a person to attempt to go for same-sex coupling instead. Homosexual inclination can be a given, but committing a same-sex intercourse is a choice.

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 2:04am

PracticalManiac

PracticalManiac

301 posts

I'm not gay myself, but can't people be gay genetically and simply by choice?

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 2:22am

Highfire

Highfire

2,936 posts

God didn't design us to ever sin, though He granted us free will and thus the ability to turn away from Him and sin. Yes, it's His work that if we sin, we get hurt. But, if a child did something and got hurt, does a parent explain him why he got hurt so he won't repeat this? God wishes us to distinguish truth from lies, a good deed from a sin, and He wishes us to not sin by making us be hurt if we commit sins.

BS.
If you knew jack "sin" was natural. Being selfish, survival of the fittest (at least was), and getting whatever you could mostly through whatever means necessary is what we used to do. And it's born into us. If you knew anything, you'd know free will isn't as free as you think, there are small influences that are so subtle you wouldn't realize they're there until you actually test it.

as children of god, why are we so susceptible to temptation? It kinda seems like god wanted us to be weak-willed, in opposition to most of his angels.

Quit assuming it's real till you prove it real.
Thanks.

Yes, God made us imperfect, probably because of angels being made perfect, and some of them irreversably turned away from God, thus becoming demons. Our imperfectness allows us to be fallible, but also allows us to understand if we fell and ask for help, from both God ang neighbors. Our imperfectness is what allows us to grow while we live, in what Church calls "holiness", that is life with God. Temptations are needed so we can have examples of what's bad and what's good, and can learn to choose good.

Prove it. All you said was what you believe, not why, not how.

thus, homosexual actions are still sins or "crimes".

And you've the right to judge? No, it isn't the word of God because you didn't prove it. You are being the judge based on a 2,000 year old library book.

starting to debate with the only reason of proving me right instead of the reason of explaining God's ways.

Same thing. You haven't yet proved God's right, and thus taken the thread off topic. Prove him right otherwise it's just a defense / offense mechanism, as far as I'm concerned.

Who has left the world first, the one in Heaven or the one that ended up in Hell? However, in both cases the loving one will pray God for the other's salvation. If the loving one's love is true, his prayers will also be true and guided by love, and God will grant that person salvation. In case of the loving one to enter Heaven prior to the other one's leaving the world, the loving one's love is proven to be true, thus he will be heard.

Again, you've no proof. No biblical texts are going to cut it, nor are cool pictures of words in the sky or something. God doesn't know subtlety, he's spent most of his creation life making big nice minecraft blocks and people.

Oh and just to make sure no, you can't prove he himself helps you and therefore that is not an argument.

He gives you signs of His presence and urges you to turn back to Him, and when a person dies, his book of life will be presented to him with full explanation of what choices he made that led him into the state of denying God. This book contains the entire set of information about the person in question, including his thoughts and hidden intentions, and by these thoughts, intentions and deeds will a person be judged. While you are here, you can do actions that will change your future outcome, you just need to decide that you will.

I'd be alright with that if God was actually a malevolant guy. But even his moralities are wrong and disgusting. Not to mention, you haven't proved any of this. They're disgusting because from simple instinct I and many others can think or "better" rules that infact conflict with "God's"..

And, you are tempting others to become sexually aroused by the pictures you provide.

No harm done as long as God isn't proven as far as I'm concerned. Given your previous post I just answered to shouldn't God see that I am indeed not going against him but the fact that there is so little evidence of proof of him being here?
Does he expect us to be so illogical? Because if so, he's underestimated us severely and that is not a defense, by the way as he is meant to be all-knowing.

Remember that Jesus said:

Again, I have to say. Prove it.

I'm not gay myself, but can't people be gay genetically and simply by choice?

Genetically? Not really, unless they were genetically modified.
Choice? Hell yeah, it's nearly always their choice.

- H

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 2:28am

vesperbot

vesperbot

986 posts

- H

Blatant ignorance never leads to anything. This discussion ends in a stalemate.

can't people be gay genetically and simply by choice?

Genetically they can be homo-inclined, but they can comit themselves to be gay only by choice.

 
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