Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
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Gotcha! Jesus said "You will be judged by your words". Now you're throwing THIS at thepyro222, so I now apply this to MageGrayWolf, qwerty1011 and E1337. I give you evidence (yes, not a cast-iron proof), you throw Monty Python videos at me, other "Context" videos that were made up ignoring cause-and-effect laws and claim your position as being backed up.
Strange, I never saw any evidence. And we merely showed relevant videos and 1 monty python video. And you can't talk about cause and effect. Nothing caused god so how does he have an effect.
This is evidence, not proof. There's similar evidence about God, I have given Turin's shroud, Fatima's miracle, and I can also give an unexplained lighting of Europe's night on Jan 25, 1938 which is frequently attributed to be an aurora borealis, but the attributors missed the range and color of the lighting, commonly described as "blood-like" and "fire-like", while aurora borealis is composed of greenish-blue light primarily.
the pictures aren't evidence and fatima isn't proven, turins shroud proves nothing . This is not evidence it is wild speculation combined with superstition.The big bang has evidence and is the result of scientific research.
I LOVE CHRISTIANS AND JESUS CHRIST ON EASTER OUR FAMILY WENT TO CHURCH AND I HEARD THE STORY OF THE RESSURECTING OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE STORY ABOUT HIM IT WAS TRULY AMAZING!!!
JENJEN3451
I heard you yell this earlier on the thread, but I haven't heard any actual debate points yet. Do you have anything to say that deals with the discussion?
This is merely a thought on Christian Science that I found, pondered, and used in a report. I haven't been keeping up with this topic either since I'm new. Anyways, here are my thoughts on the subject of Creation and Evolution. I'm going to state right here that this is not theological and is mainly scientific. It doesn't prove Creation is true or that Evolution is wrong. It merely gives evidence for Creation and shoots down some theories that Evolutionists have devised.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters."
These are the first two verses of the Bible. It clearly says, God has a dark, formless ball of water. It also says the Spirit of God was there, hovering over the waters. What I think of when I read this is that God was surveying the Earth, seeing what he could do with it or he was "stirring" the waters forming currents. If the Earth did not have currents, it would not be able to support life. This seems to me to be a major flaw in the "Big Bang" theory. How were Earth's currents started? There is no power on Earth that could have began currents (including the Moon). There are many components on Earth that do keep the currents going but there is no force that could have caused them to begin. If the Bible was just a fairy tale made by some uneducated nomads why would this part of creation be included? In the Young's Literal Translation it says, "and the Spirit of God was fluttering over the waters," giving evidence of some sort of action going on (the question is "what kind of action?", which I have given evidence for already) Uneducated nomads would not know that currents are required to sustain life. God would, therefore giving further evidence of creative design.
Clearly, it can be seen that God was planning on producing life sustainable conditions on Earth. This was not random chance, it was planning.
On his first day of creation, he creates light. HE SPENT AN ENTIRE DAY MAKING LIGHTING. For any 3D rendering people, I'm sure you have the same difficulty when it comes to lighting too. ;D
Light is also a required recipe in the life sustainability area.
So far he has created water and light. What's that mean? HE'S TRYING TO MAKE LIFE, DUH. God was planning something great.
Onward.
"Then God said, 'Let there be a space between the waters, to separate the waters of the heavens from the waters of the earth.' And that is what happened. God made this space to separate the waters of the earth from the waters of the heavens. God called the space 'sky.'"
What God has just done in this verse is create the atmosphere, but not just any atmosphere. It was an atmosphere with water below and above it therefore creating a "greenhouse effect". It was perfect for sustaining animals, whether they had efficient lungs or not. This, along with "The Great Flood", explain why many large creatures found in fossil form are no longer around. In the story of the great flood it says, "and the floodgates of the heavens were opened," giving some recollection to this outer layer of water God had created to make the Earth sustainable. The
animals either a. Were killed in The Great Flood. or b. Could not get enough oxygen after the flood with their inefficient lungs (such as the giant insects, pterodactyls, and dinosaurs found in fossil records)and either went extinct or had adaptations that allowed them to become smaller and keep the same lung design (bugs and reptiles specifically). Do you seriously still think the Bible is a story made up by uneducated nomads? The book of Genesis was written by Moses. There is a fair chance he probably didn't understand atmospheric science and its effect on life sustainability. But God did.
Next day,
He then creates land, plants, lichens, and algae.
These are created to be food for future animals and to create air for the animals to breath. Again his purpose is clear, to create life and for it to flourish.
Next day,
He creates all celestial bodies. *fish face* Wow, dang, that's pretty amazing. You try doing that in one day. :P Well anyways, this leads me to some other topics that are quite interesting. *strokes beard*(just kidding) Well, I have got some interesting information for those who think that the universe was created completely randomly. If the Moon were any farther from Earth, it could not form a full solar eclipse. If the Moon were any smaller it could not form a full solar eclipse. The Moon travels at a steady rate away from Earth (3.8 cm) so why at this time is the Moon just the right size and distance for a full solar eclipse right when we (humans) evolve into the equation? It doesn't make sense. Maybe God made it that way 7,000 years ago and there hasn't been enough time for it to lose this attribute. Hmmm... Also, God made our solar system special. He gave it a single star. Many star systems (scientific fact) are dual-star systems. Dual-star systems are unable to sustain life due to the fact that there is constantly varying distances between suns and temperatures on planets near them. Thus God made Earth a proper distance from the Sun and made the Sun just the right heat and did not give it the dual-star attribute of many of our neighboring star-systems. Thank God for a sustainable Earth.
I will continue more tomorrow. (Although I'm not sure there is much more.)
If the Earth did not have currents, it would not be able to support life.
For those of you who are unobservant, this is because water currents dissolve oxygen in the water, which aquatic organisms need to live.
@cablecar1
Here is deductive proof for evolution (genetic change over time - not the idea that we are descendents from a single organism):
There exists genetic variation within a population, and the difference in traits between individuals affects their survival and ability to produce fertile offspring.
There is a mode of inheritance - traits are inherited from parents. This shows how a beneficial trait may be passed on from generation to generation.
Thus, over time, one can observe that beneficial traits become more common within populations, and they lead to genetic change in the species as a whole over time. This genetic change explains the ideas of macroevolution as well (microevolution leads to macroevolution when you take into account the effects of the interactions between species on survival and reproduction).
Accepting 1 and 2, the third statement follows, regardless of God's existence.
This is merely a thought on Christian Science that I found, pondered, and used in a report.
The report better have gotten an F, or have been in some insane faith school.
I'm going to state right here that this is not theological and is mainly scientific. It doesn't prove Creation is true or that Evolution is wrong
I highly doubt that science will be present in this message, but here goes nothing...
God has a dark, formless ball of water. It also says the Spirit of God was there, hovering over the waters
What happened to the sun?
What I think of when I read this is that God was surveying the Earth, seeing what he could do with it or he was "stirring" the waters forming currents. If the Earth did not have currents, it would not be able to support life.
Currents. Water moving, caused by convection. Convection caused by the sun, which would mean the earth was not dark when the currents "started"...
. This seems to me to be a major flaw in the "Big Bang" theory. How were Earth's currents started?
Do you know any science? Convection, the same way the wind blows.
here is no power on Earth that could have began currents (including the Moon). There are many components on Earth that do keep the currents going but there is no force that could have caused them to begin. If the Bible was just a fairy tale made by some uneducated nomads why would this part of creation be included? In the Young's Literal Translation it says, "and the Spirit of God was fluttering over the waters," giving evidence of some sort of action going on (the question is "what kind of action?", which I have given evidence for already) Uneducated nomads would not know that currents are required to sustain life. God would, therefore giving further evidence of creative design.
This is all not worth anything, since I already said CONVECTION several times...
On his first day of creation, he creates light. HE SPENT AN ENTIRE DAY MAKING LIGHTING. For any 3D rendering people, I'm sure you have the same difficulty when it comes to lighting too. ;D
Light is also a required recipe in the life sustainability area.
No it isn't, just energy. There have been instances of animals that live in total darkness, they even evolved their eyes away. They still get energy from the sun, but light isn't required.
hat God has just done in this verse is create the atmosphere, but not just any atmosphere. It was an atmosphere with water below and above it therefore creating a "greenhouse effect"
Since when do we have water "Above the sky"?
Do you seriously still think the Bible is a story made up by uneducated nomads? The book of Genesis was written by Moses. There is a fair chance he probably didn't understand atmospheric science and its effect on life sustainability. But God did.
No, this sounds like a book written by know nothing nomads to me...
These are created to be food for future animals and to create air for the animals to breath. Again his purpose is clear, to create life and for it to flourish.
Wait, how do they "create air"? They would need carbon dioxide to "breath", and if he already was pumping in that then he could just go with oxygen to...
And the rest is still worth nothing.
And just to say one more thing, FRICKEN CONVECTION!
In the beginning God
First problem: there is no god. But carry on...
How were Earth's currents started?
I'm not an expert in this, but I do know that the movements and temperatures from the earliests volcanos could have played an important role. And the gravitational pulse of the sun and the moon definitely did something to the currents.
he creates light.
Probably the biggest flaw in the bible's beginning. He creates light before the sun and the stars and the moon? Where did that light come from? How come we can't spot that magical light anymore? This shows that the people who made the bible weren't really good in astronomy, nor math.
therefore creating a "greenhouse effect".
The greenhouse effect was created with volcanos. And that greenhouse effect wasn't perfect. There where many instants in history of the earth where it became too cold or too hot.
creatures found in fossil form are no longer around.
No, lol. Dinos where already dead long before humans.
Do you seriously still think the Bible is a story made up by uneducated nomads?
Yes, I do. And you proved it to me.
But God did.
Then why didn't he leave mathematic equations and scientific notes? Instead of putting it in a poetic fashion.
You try doing that in one day.
Not to brag or anything, but I could create a whole world in a day.
Maybe God made it that way 7,000 years ago and there hasn't been enough time for it to lose this attribute.
No lol. That makes less sense then being random. Image if we had two moons, wouldn't that be awesome? Sure life would be different, but we could have 1 solar eclipse at the same time as a lunar eclipse. Cosmic selection.
He gave it a single star. Many star systems (scientific fact) are dual-star systems.
I could say that we also found a lot of one star solar systems. (scientific fact).
Thus God made Earth a proper distance from the Sun and made the Sun just the right heat and did not give it the dual-star attribute of many of our neighboring star-systems. Thank God for a sustainable Earth.
I don't remember the number (I'll look it up later), but since, 1995 I think, we have found many planets that have the same characterizations of the earth and recently, a couple of them could actually hold life.
I don't think uneducated nomads could write more than you could read, because it seems like every time you respond with a verse, it's out of context.
Do you seriously still think the Bible is a story made up by uneducated nomads?
Yes, I do. And you proved it to me.
Well i suppose they were educated for their time. And I think they had a basic idea of things but didn't get a lot right.
I don't think uneducated nomads could write more than you could read, because it seems like every time you respond with a verse, it's out of context.
Examples?
Well i suppose they were educated for their time. And I think they had a basic idea of things but didn't get a lot right.
*Looks at the Greeks at the same time period* Ya no. The Greek had a ton of knowledge, practical knowledge, and a ton of better books with even a library. Comparing them to most other civilizations at the time, and they typically come out under them.
I don't think uneducated nomads could write more than you could read,
Even through I didn't finish the bible, as far as I am, there still wasn't anything that I "couldn't" read. By uneducated I didn't mean in the sense of literature or poetry or whatnot, I was more thinking about that whole science thing...
because it seems like every time you respond with a verse, it's out of context.
Oh really? Could you give me an example and I'll explain the verse to you.
This seems to me to be a major flaw in the "Big Bang" theory. How were Earth's currents started?
Earth's environment has nothing to do with the Big Bang.
Uneducated nomads would not know that currents are required to sustain life. God would, therefore giving further evidence of creative design.
They wouldn't need to. Also as this implies the Earth starts as being nothing but water which is simply wrong. We would have had to start with the heavier metals that make up the core.
Next day,
He then creates land, plants, lichens, and algae.
Also note he did all this before he created the sun. Not only would this have been needed to sustain the planets but also the gravity from the sun would have been needed to keep the Earth in orbit. Unless God was just standing in for the sun for all that time, which seems like a very backwards way to do it and not something I would expect from a perfect or even near perfect being.
I have got some interesting information for those who think that the universe was created completely randomly.
We don't think it was created randomly. There are very predicable natural forces at work.
Maybe God made it that way 7,000 years ago and there hasn't been enough time for it to lose this attribute.
I'm not sure how your coming to that conclusion. If it has to do with the Moon's distance, it's quite possible for us to still have a moon.
That's 3.8 centimeters a year. It's believed to have formed about 4.5 billion years ago. That's only an extra distance of about 171,000 kilometers (106,254.47387 miles) The current estimated distance is about 384,403 kilometers. So that would mean it's starting point was about 213,403 kilometers away.
Dual-star systems are unable to sustain life due to the fact that there is constantly varying distances between suns and temperatures on planets near them.
I've never heard anything in science state this.
After reading through what you've said you haven't touched on anything dealing with evolution.
it's out of context.
With the bible it always is. The bible is 100% true because it is and god is above logic and science. Therefore whatever evidence comes from the bible is correct and if it doesn't then you're doing it wrong?
The bible is 100% true because it is
A Muslim would say the same thing of the koran. You can not claim that something is true just because it is. It needs to be supported with evidence.
@darnell13 you didn't get the sarcasm in my post or flowchart did you?
It needs to be supported with evidence.
Some fundamentalist don't think so.
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