ForumsWEPRTheism and Atheism

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thepyro222
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thepyro222
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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thepyro222
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thepyro222
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@Einfach that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Einfach
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Einfach
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@Einfach that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

What specifically? We're in disagreement, right?
thepyro222
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thepyro222
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Your entire argument about a vending machine? nothing in your argument makes sense

thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
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What specifically? We're in disagreement, right?


He has no idea what determinism means.
Einfach
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Einfach
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Your entire argument about a vending machine? nothing in your argument makes sense

Exactly - it's reductio ad absurdum AGAINST not-determinism. Therefore, determinism. Therefore Not-christianity.
Einfach
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Einfach
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This is why determinism doesn't make sense.

Oops - bad typo - this should read - this is why determinism is the only plausible option - nothing else makes sense.
He has no idea what determinism means.

Forgot to include definition - thanks.

"a philosophical theory holding that all events are inevitable consequences of antecedent sufficient causes"

There - according to the definition, determinism is the only plausible option. And it precludes Christianity.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
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Exactly - it's reductio ad absurdum AGAINST not-determinism. Therefore, determinism. Therefore Not-christianity.


I doubt he knows what reductio ad absurdum means either :P

Einfach is basically saying that if determinism is correct, then Christianity is not. He was then saying that not-determinism makes no sense, and used an argument called a reductio ad absurdum - which is following the implications of a premise to an absurd and illogical consequence (in this case, doing the exact same thing but getting a different result), meaning that not-determinism cannot be correct, so determinism is, therefore Christianity is not.
thepyro222
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thepyro222
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your reducto ad whatever looks good on paper, but it is irrelevant in real life.

thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
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your reducto ad whatever looks good on paper, but it is irrelevant in real life.


Determinism precludes the existence of a god, and he was demonstrating that non-determinism is logically impossible/implausible. That applies to everything.
thepyro222
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thepyro222
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It's common sense that If I press one button on a vending machine that no matter what I'm going to get what the button says, unless there is some human error, but I fail to see how it applies to anything other than common sense

Einfach
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Einfach
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your reducto ad whatever looks good on paper, but it is irrelevant in real life.

One might argue that this entire argument is affirming the consequent - that I'm only giving one example. In reality, determinism applies to every single action in the universe.

However, not-determinism implies that there are contradictions between cause and effect. No contradictions can exist, therefore, determinism is inevitable.

Second - I HATE HATE HATE (needed 3 of them to express rage on interwebs) this type of argument. "Logically it should work, but it is not true." Whatever is logical and achieved through deductive reasoning MUST be true - you'd have to be irrational to deny it. And its relevance is not related to its truthful-ness.

If you cannot logically deny it, the Christianity is absolutely impossible!
thepyro222
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thepyro222
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There is no proof for this, your argument is logically impossible, and deductive reasoning doesnt work

thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
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It's common sense that If I press one button on a vending machine that no matter what I'm going to get what the button says, unless there is some human error, but I fail to see how it applies to anything other than common sense


He was using the vending machine as an example - a process wherein (we'll call it Process A), if you do things one way, you get Outcome A. If determinism was NOT true, than it would be possible to do Process A and get Outcome B. The vending machine argument was demonstrating that. However, that is logically impossible, so not-determinism is disproved, meaning determinism is proved, meaning Christianity cannot be true.
thepyro222
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thepyro222
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None of this still makes sense. This is absolute bullcrap

thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
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There is no proof for this, your argument is logically impossible, and deductive reasoning doesnt work


His argument was a demonstration that not-determinism doesn't work, not an actual argument for not-determinism.

And on deductive reasoning not working . . . I am liable to throw this forum section up in the air and walk away in disappointment. Please read up on deductive reasoning and learn what it is.
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