ForumsWEPRTheism and Atheism

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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,156 posts
Shepherd

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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Einfach
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Einfach
1,456 posts
Peasant

There is no proof for this, your argument is logically impossible, and deductive reasoning doesnt work


OK - let's use symbolized logic to lay it out better.

1. ~(p ^ ~p) - Law of Non-contradiction
2. (p v ~p) - Law of the Excluded Middle
3. ~D --> (p ^ ~p) - Not-Determinism (~D) implies a contradiction.
4. ~~D - Not-Not determinism, because Not-determinism implies a contradiction.
5. ~~D --> D - Not-Not something implies something.
6. Therefore, D - Determinism is inevitable!!!
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,832 posts
Farmer

1. ~(p ^ ~p) - Law of Non-contradiction
2. (p v ~p) - Law of the Excluded Middle


Very interesting what Moe said to you about that. How those are logically equivalent.
Einfach
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Einfach
1,456 posts
Peasant

Oops - forgot something.

(P --> Q) --> (~Q --> ~P)

Thus, we can make this

(~D --> (p ^ ~p) ) --> (~(p ^ ~p) --> ~~D)
Modus Ponens -
(~(p ^ ~p) --> ~~D)
Modus Ponens (because of Non-contradiction)
~~D
Therefore, D

thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,156 posts
Shepherd

I'll give you an example of proof of God. Atheists like to use the Big Bang as an example. Scientifically, the universe HAS to have a beginning and an end, as explained by scientists. So there HAS to be a creator for there to be a creation. In this form, the creation is the universe. So it is a contradiction for there not to be God

Einfach
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Einfach
1,456 posts
Peasant

So there HAS to be a creator for there to be a creation. In this form, the creation is the universe. So it is a contradiction for there not to be God

Unless...there's a counterexample.

Anyway, I created a better cosmological argument of my own, but that's for another time...

However, the cosmological argument doesn't preclude the Big Bang starting everything.

The universe DOES have to have a beginning (not necessarily an end - why assume this?), but this is because of a finite amount of energy in the universe.

Thus, ~(Cosmological --> God)
thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,156 posts
Shepherd

The Cosmos were created by God

Einfach
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Einfach
1,456 posts
Peasant

The Cosmos were created by God

Is this an assumption or an assertion?
Moe
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Moe
1,725 posts
Jester

So there HAS to be a creator for there to be a creation.


Why? Why can't the matter have always existed? Why can't the universe collapse on itself into an infinitely small space and have the big bang happen again, and again and again..? Last I knew that was a valid idea for the universe.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
959 posts
Peasant

If determinism, then not Christianity.
False. Christianity does not oppose determinism. Your argument is declined.
driejen
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driejen
486 posts
Peasant

How many times have I seen the cosmological argument already...

Scientifically, the universe HAS to have a beginning

Scientifically speaking matter cannot be created, only creationists insist that matter must have been created not scientists. The only thing I would say necessarily has to have a beggining is time.

and an end

Who the hell gave you that idea? How do you know that?

So there HAS to be a creator for there to be a creation.
Let's say for argument's sake that matter was created at the big bang, even though the theory does not in anyway state or imply that. What makes you think this 'creator' has to be sentient?

Its stupid that you can say, everything MUST be created and then make a special exception with a metaphysical being that somehow interferes with the physical world.
thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,156 posts
Shepherd

Why? Why can't the matter have always existed? Why can't the universe collapse on itself into an infinitely small space and have the big bang happen again, and again and again..? Last I knew that was a valid idea for the universe.


Because modern science says otherwise. It had to have a beginning and an end. And who else can explain the beginning except God?
thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,156 posts
Shepherd

If you are actually looking for proof rather than sitting here trolling, then you should look at the links I posted above. If you are actually trolling, thank you for proving Jesus even more.

Einfach
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Einfach
1,456 posts
Peasant

False. Christianity does not oppose determinism. Your argument is declined.

Assuming this, then you haven't disproven the claim that all rational Christians are also determinist.

Well, there's more arguments.

God cannot "create" morality. Without God's existence, the universe would still have virtues. For instance, why is it immoral to murder? Surely not because of God?! For murder would be wrong whether God existed or not!

All true virtues are not the creation of God, but exist independently of God.
Darkroot
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Darkroot
2,775 posts
Shepherd

Because modern science says otherwise. It had to have a beginning and an end. And who else can explain the beginning except God?


Oh really, do you have a source for that? Because last time I checked one of the basic laws of physics is that energy cannot be created or destroyed. If it cannot be created then it had no beginning. There are an infinite amount of things that are infinite, ergo not end, for example irrational numbers.

Are you stating it was God (as in omnipotent deity) or the Christian God? and if so why a Christian God?
thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,156 posts
Shepherd

God cannot "create" morality. Without God's existence, the universe would still have virtues. For instance, why is it immoral to murder? Surely not because of God?! For murder would be wrong whether God existed or not!

All true virtues are not the creation of God, but exist independently of God.

This is false as well. God sent the first original laws when he gave the ten commandments to Moses. All moralities and virtues are based off of a religion in some form or another.
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