ForumsWEPRTheism and Atheism

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thepyro222
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thepyro222
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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vesperbot
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vesperbot
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Pascal's Wager is that every religion, including Christianity, has an equal chance of being the "correct" religion, and none can prove otherwise.
Pascal's Wager does not seem to ever include any link to choosing a religion, though there were no religion but Christianity around him by that time.
must a God create assumed "miracles" for it to be a god?
Well, since there is a religion where miracles continue to happen, in unpredictable forms however, then all other "gods" aren't gods. This in fact also shifts the probability of Christianity to be true in condition that God exists closer to one, even for an atheist. So this rebutes most of the arguments about "infinite" religions.
Personal experiences =/= evidence.
Plain wrong. You're mistaking evidence with proof.
There are a number of factors that could have contributed to what happened that neither they or the doctors were aware of.
Yes indeed, but where is their source then? Calling it God is by no means wrong, at least for a believer. You can try and dig more mundane sources anyway.
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
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Well, since there is a religion where miracles continue to happen, in unpredictable forms however, then all other "gods" aren't gods. This in fact also shifts the probability of Christianity to be true in condition that God exists closer to one, even for an atheist. So this rebutes most of the arguments about "infinite" religions.


How do you know such miracles are the work of Jehovah, and not, say, Zeus or Thor? These miracles that continue to happen can be called miracles by the faithful, but they can also NOT be miracles, just something caused by something unknown.

Plain wrong. You're mistaking evidence with proof.


Evidence: that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.

You are mistaking evidence with witnessing, or first-hand accounts.

Yes indeed, but where is their source then?


Even if there is no founded source for the phenomenon, it does not mean that a supernatural being caused it.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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Plain wrong. You're mistaking evidence with proof.

Evidence: that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.

You are mistaking evidence with witnessing, or first-hand accounts.
Hmm. Wikipedia states: "Types of evidence: ... # Personal experience # Scientific evidence # Testimonial" I'd say let's settle on this term when a person expresses their experience, and use the term &quotroof" for anything less personal.
How do you know such miracles are the work of Jehovah, and not, say, Zeus or Thor?
Zeus is dead, Thor is dead. How can dead make miracles?
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
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I'd say let's settle on this term when a person expresses their experience, and use the term &quotroof" for anything less personal.


Such BS wouldn't be allowed in a court of law or in a peer review.

Zeus is dead, Thor is dead. How can dead make miracles?


Very easily, it seems.
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
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Okay, I have to jump in and say something. I know their are people on this forum who don't agree with what the original post was stating, but here's what I have to say: Faith is something you feel, not what you think. When I came to accept Christ, something so powerful that you can't explain it happens. I think that applies to Christianity and every other religion out there. All I know is that there is a God and I wouldn't be here without him. Twice in my life have I know a miracle to happen. Once with myself, and once with my mother. God saved us when medically, there was no hope and doctors had given up. After that happening to me, it's hard for me to ever say that there isn't a God. )


So basically you believe in God because "I feel Jesus" yet you know that you would feel Allah etc so you have no actual proof for Gods existence other than you recovered from something that it was improbable to happen to you. Yet this happens to people of other religions and atheists.
And that's why most Christians have Christian parents, Muslims have Muslim parents etc.?


That's called childhood indoctrination and it works because kids are genetically programmed to believe what a figure of authority tells you since if say your parents say don't go near the edge of a cliff you can't test it so you just trust them. This usually is beneficial but it also makes them believe in a religion.
How do you distinguish between a miracle and something that happens very rarely?


If you don't believe in God a miracle is seen as wow that was lucky. If you believe in God a lucky event is seen as wow some clever guy said that as unlikely. Ergo God must've done it. Like here at about 2:30.
Wrong statement. First of all, whatever is the man's creation is not God. So shemales with dildos, spaghetti monsters and invisible unicorns are idols and nothing more. This leaves several ancient religions and God of Israel. Choosing between these is a lot easier, and even if I'd miss, I'd find out that being a generally good person leads to equivalent of heaven in all of them. And tell me please Avorne, what miracles did Vishnu ever made?


But all god was made by man. That's the whole point. And what miracles did God make which can be proven as being god.
Zeus is dead, Thor is dead. How can dead make miracles?


They never existed like your own God. But if you mean a dead god has no belief then why not Allah.
Pascal's Wager does not seem to ever include any link to choosing a religion, though there were no religion but Christianity around him by that time.


Look, pascals wager is based on how the is no negative aspects of believing a religion compared with what you get if the religion is right. But along with the fact that any God wouldn't fall for fake belief if you believed in another God compared with believing in no God until it can be proven I think any truly good God would respect logic more. And you can actually live life more to the full as an atheist so you actually lose from the wager.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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Such BS wouldn't be allowed in a court of law or in a peer review.
We are in neither. You seem to not want accepting basic grounds for a dialogue.
Very easily, it seems.
Prove this. You can use your own example easily.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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But all god was made by man. That's the whole point.
Prove this.
the fact that any God wouldn't fall for fake belief if you believed in another God
The FACT? Prove this.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Plain wrong. You're mistaking evidence with proof.


Partly wrong. It's subjective evidence which is of no real use to an outside observer and could easily be interpreted incorrectly, since we have no way to separate it from any sort of bias view.

Well, since there is a religion where miracles continue to happen, in unpredictable forms however, then all other "gods" aren't gods. This in fact also shifts the probability of Christianity to be true in condition that God exists closer to one, even for an atheist. So this rebutes most of the arguments about "infinite" religions.


Since as you say there is no way of objectively testing a miracle we can't say that any such event is the result of your God or any god for that matter. All attempts at testing such events have resulting in odds no better then chance and showing no favoritism between test groups. So you don't get to make this claim that miracles happen for one religion but not the others.

Yes indeed, but where is their source then? Calling it God is by no means wrong, at least for a believer. You can try and dig more mundane sources anyway.


An unknown factor is just that UNKNOWN. We can't say where it comes from because we don't know. Claiming that it was definitively God is wrong because we don't know if it was God or something else that was missed. Your desire to want it to be God or your funny feelings isn't any clue as to what it was. Now if the claim was it could be God or it possibly was God then maybe you would have an argument.

Zeus is dead, Thor is dead. How can dead make miracles?


I don't recall Ragnarok happening or any event where Zeus died in mythology. The religion where these figures were worshiped died, but the characters are no more dead then your God.
Highfire
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Highfire
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Prove this.

I think he explained it wrong.

Instead, prove God is real, if not, the logical thing to assume was that it was the Aesop's Fables 2,000 years ago.

Or it was the same reason for Greek / Norse / Egyptian mythology. In which case, this entire subject is meaningless (as is Mythology, I'm sure you know).

Morality wasn't such a dictative thing that it is now. Hell - there isn't a lot of morality out there today, but still more than before. Religion was the option to be morally correct, have your fantasy and repent for anything you knew was wrong because you could be forgiven.

That grievous injury or condition you suffered? Probably your own body, belief in surviving can make a difference - mentality can effect your physical body (Meditation = Slowed heart rate + calmness for example), and vice versa. I'd prefer believe my own willpower has gotten me through something than I've held hands with someone to help me through - think about it, that's something you'd do when you're six.

- H
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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I think he explained it wrong.

Instead, prove God is real, if not, the logical thing to assume was that it was the Aesop's Fables 2,000 years ago.
Shifting burden of proof, AGAIN? This is getting old. This time qwerty1011 has stated something questionable, and it's his turn to prove.
I'd prefer believe my own willpower has gotten me through something than I've held hands with someone to help me through
You don't want debts to anyone for helping you out? In case of God, we're already in debt that we can't repay, and it's normal, just live with it and do good to people so they can transfer good further. He however knows that we can't repay such a debt, and He doesn't require us repaying it fully. That's something you'd do when you're six? Maybe, though six-year-old sees his parents around and knows that they do a lot for him. We don't see God, but He does a real lot for us which we don't pay attention to.
mentality can effect your physical body
Yes it can, but can pure mentality open eyes of the innate blind people?
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
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But all god was made by man. That's the whole point.

Prove this.


You prove that God exists. And anyway since you must agree that every other religion was made by man since those gods don't exist why is your religion so special that it is the right one

the fact that any God wouldn't fall for fake belief if you believed in another God

The FACT? Prove this.


An omnipotent God who knows everything and is everywhere would find it pretty easy to tell what belief is real and what isn't. I mean he'd have been there when the person realised that their belief was false. And this is all backed up the bible anyway so you can't really argue with it, since if god wasn't all powerful how could he have made the world.
Avorne
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Avorne
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Uuurgh, the burden of proof is on the one asserting the claim, the claim in this case being God.

I owe a debt to no one, if God wants to claim his payment from me then he can come and prove His existence first, until then - any good I do is purely for the sake of my fellow man and myself not not for some deities debt.

vesperbot
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vesperbot
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Claiming that it was definitively God is wrong because we don't know if it was God or something else that was missed.
I wonder, what do you think about events what we call random? The source of why this random number appeared on a die in this particular throw, provided the thrower didn't intend on throwing that die to make a six, for example, is clearly unknown. But an unknown source can have its own source in God, and you'll never succeed proving otherwise. In short, a believer can safely claim that God did everything that ever happened in the world, and will be right. You can safely claim that you know some of the events, where they have originated and such, and you will also be right. What a believer cannot claim, is that God will do something particular for him if he'd do something for God, like praying - because the believer does not know if the thing he wants will do good to him and everyone else. An atheist can't claim this as well, because either he doesn't believe, or will turn into self-pride as "I have made God do things for me!", which is one of seven mortal sins, thus is bad for the atheist.
An omnipotent God who knows everything and is everywhere would find it pretty easy to tell what belief is real and what isn't. I mean he'd have been there when the person realised that their belief was false. And this is all backed up the bible anyway so you can't really argue with it, since if god wasn't all powerful how could he have made the world.
This explains that God will be when a believer in some other religion than believing in Him will realise his failure. Yes, He will be there. But He will also look at that believer's deeds, and if they are in compliance with his conscience, He can grant him salvation. So that "fact" wasn't proven. I have read a passage from "The Chronicles of Narnia" about their good god Aslan, speaking about beliefs, like this: "If a person swears by Tash, but upholds the oath, he's swearing by me not knowing this, and I'll reward him. If a person swears by me, and betrays the oath, he has sworn by Tash, and she'll accept his servitude".
Uuurgh, the burden of proof is on the one asserting the claim, the claim in this case being God.
The claim in question is "all gods were made by men", and this has to be proven, not by theists this time.
Avorne
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Avorne
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Well, that might be true, the ultimate assertion though is still that a God exists - that one should be solved before we start talking about whether they were man-made or not.

vesperbot
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vesperbot
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hmm, if this will be resolved, then the man-made question will automatically be resolved, since God, if speaking about an infinite and omnipotent entity, cannot be made by man. Not even imagined, as human's mind is finite. Please don't dodge this issue any more.

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